Well, if you're losing in a duel with deadly weapons, you probably will barely escape with your life. And if you're equal or near-equal with someone, then you'll obviously be "severely tested". Maul was also severely tested, lol.
What I was trying to draw attention to was Maul's admission that he only began to get the advantage once Jinn's stamina declined, which means that End Game retconned Qui-Gon to being virtually equal to Maul in other domains of lightsaber fighting.
For what it's worth, the TPM novel, even with its' favourable position on Maul, depicts the two "surging back and forth across the flats".
You realize that he fought for a hell of a lot longer than 30 seconds against Maul on Naboo, right? Granted, Maul wasn't as aggressive, but you're underplaying Jinn's stamina.
It's from the Ep 1 Journal where Maul claims that his injury is "almost imperceptible" but "still there". Obviously he's not at his best, but it's not that big of a deal.
Qui-Gon wasn't necessarily at his best either. He had been running from Mos Espa to the outskirts non-stop until he encountered Maul. I vaguely recall a quote about him being tired already, but I don't remember where it's from. I'll get back to you if I can find it.
Well, Maul was injured there, so (a slightly tired?) Qui-Gon is virtually equal with a slightly injured Maul. There's no other interpretation when Maul himself admits that he only got the advantage due to Qui-Gon's flagging stamina.
And nah, two-on-ones tend to work that way in SW. It's not like you add Obi-Wan's skill on top of Qui-Gon's and say that Maul could eclipse that.
By the way, Cloak of Deception claims that some of Qui-Gon's spars with Anoon Bondara were "brief", which may well mean that he could beat Bondara easily and swiftly at times.
Nonsense gymnastics lol. If Jinn barely escaped with his life that means his life was about to be taken i.e. he was about to lose. And it is you who has decided they were near-equals, nowhere is Maul described as severely tested, nor does he display any signs of fatigue.
It hasn't retconned anything, in all renditions of the fight Maul intially has an advantage, then it evens out, and then Jinn begins to decline, I suggest you re-read prior sources.
Nonetheless this is no more proof that Maul and Jinn are near equals, than Ahsoka having the upper hand against Vader at the start of their duel proves she is better, Maul still ended up emerging decisively superior. And in their second duel on Naboo, the sources describe Maul holding off both Jinn and Kenobi with contemptuous ease. Whom also admits that Maul is both faster and stronger than him.
Because Maul purposefully drew out the fight yes, in order to divide and conquer his opponents, and once he had Jinn alone, dispatched him rather quickly. I also remember that throughout the course of the duel, and despite Jinn having Kenobi for back up, he he almost never conceded the upper-hand.
Enough for Maul to state that the Jedi had "an advantage", and to cause Maul significant frustration. Nonetheless I'm not attempting to overstate the advantage, only pointing out it was a factor, another factor being that Maul was not wielding his saberstaff.
What are you on about? Obviously he was about to lose — that's why he ran. I don't know why you think I'm denying this when I admitted that Qui-Gon would've lost. I'm saying that it's solely the product of his flagging stamina, as per End Game. In other areas, they're near-equal.
As for Maul being severely tested, I think that him resorting to excuses like the Force outright favoring Qui-Gon or being more committed to any challenge since his fight with Sidious imply as much.
Nowhere did I say Maul was fatigued.
Retcon..."I suggest you re-read prior sources"...
The point of a retcon is that it overrides prior sources. I'm not sure if you really read End Game... because it makes it blatantly apparent there that Maul did not have an initial advantage, and Jinn's decline is attributed solely to his stamina. My point being that in terms of skill and other areas of dueling, they're pretty close.
My point is that Maul got the upper hand only when Qui-Gon tired, which means that he wasn't skilfully better or anything else, under the circumstances.
Actually, when Qui-Gon was isolated, he first drove Maul back into the Theed Power Generator before taking a moment to rest when the walls came up because he was tiring.
My point is that Qui-Gon is a near-equal to Maul under those circumstances. In an all-out fight, he'd be a bit further below, but definitely not as much as conventionally thought.
My bad, I assumed you were well, contesting my point. I which case I assume you agree with me when I say that Jinn could not maintain parity with Maul for any serious length of time. Which means holistically they are not really near equals at all, at least from my perspective.
And no not at all tbh, Maul has fought very few Jedi opponents and evidently holds him self to a very high standard, he's just frustrated that he didn't crush Jinn underfoot, and that Jinn indeed as able to escape. And from that fact that Maul was not fatigued, I extrapolate that he was not severely tested.
What a way to miss my point. My point is the sources are not different in how they render the fight.
But no, End Game describes Jinn as initially caught off guard, which corroborates with the other sources. In fact from reading End Game its quite obvious that Luceno was referring to previous renderings as a guide, and rewriting events in his own words. Again, re-read them.
There is also the primary source itself, the film, in which we see quite clearly that Maul initially drives him back.
You can't separate the two I'm afraid, Qui-Gon got tired because he was pressed to a severe degree, by Maul's strength, speed and skill. The fact that Maul showed no signs of fatigue indicating the following obvious conclusion, that Jinn's abilities were not nearly as pressing.
Not sure what the point your trying to make is but I'll just repeat myself, Qui-Gon drove Maul back because Maul let him.
My point being that he cannot be considered near-equal to Maul if he can't maintain pace with him. Any more than Ahsoka should be considered Vader's better then she couldn't maintain her advantage. He was evidently burning much more energy than Maul to be able to achieve that, and remained a 30 second affair even when Maul was in a weakened state.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Feb 25th, 2017 at 03:44 PM
@Beni - Pretty much all of our disagreements boil down to the separation between skill and stamina. Obviously Qui-Gon lacked the stamina to compete. I'm saying his skills matched up to Maul's. As he admits in the TPM novel and as TCSWE describes, he's physically inferior and can't last as long before tiring. As far as sheer skill with a blade goes, though, they're about even.
Also, you're right on Maul's initial attack surprising Qui-Gon, but End Game and the Episode 1 Journal reveal that Maul himself was surprised by Qui-Gon's ability to block the attack. As you said, he was surprised that he couldn't crush Qui-Gon underfoot, but that doesn't mean he was underselling himself throughout the fight. He still realized that he was only getting the advantage once Qui-Gon tired.
Dark Jedi would be the appropriate description. However, Revan was not on his way to become a Sith. When he learned about the existence of Sith from Mandalore the Ultimate, he was shocked and decided to assassinate the Sith Emperor so that the Sith Empire would implode from within and would be an easy picking after that.
My argument is about breach of Revan's mental defenses. I don't think a lesser Telepath than Vitiate could manage that. And if you have any doubt, then keep in mind that Vitiate broke the duo of Revan and Malak almost effortlessly. So it is not like as if Vitiate was not capable of breaking them otherwise.
Even if we assume that Mace Windu is individually superior to any member of the Strike Team that confronted Vitiate, he is unlikely to carry his Team to victory. He would be preoccupied with saving his own @ss.
Qui-Gon Jinn's dueling skills are almost irrelevant. Vitiate would swat him like a fly with his powers before it comes down to that.
Lord Scourge was skeptical about that. He did foresee some scenarios in which Vitiate was neutralized but he eventually came to the conclusion that defeat was more likely (confirmation in the novel). In-fact, he foresaw defeat even in his sleep earlier. So there's that.
Hero of Tython slaughtered Darth Angral in single combat earlier, the guy who stalemated heavyweights such as Darth Baras and Satele Shan in a confrontation on separate occasions and slaughtered Jedi Master Orgus Din. And even Din was no slouch in combat, he had considerable experience and Force abilities.
Tol Braga and others presented significant challenge to Hero of Tython during the Act-III proceedings at individual capacity. My take on this matter is that it was not possible for a lone warrior to take on and defeat the trio of Braga, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz much like Vitiate. So there's that.
I would say that Tol Braga is in the TIER of Satele Shan and others are not far behind.
Author's pathetic writing not withstanding, every Force-user has to do that (technically speaking). And no! Revan found no opening or gap to exploit. Even when Vitiate was momentarily down, he was able to stop Revan's advance in time.
Vitiate can (and will) swiftly break the Strike Team you proposed. The only nuisance would be the droid but it would taken care of.
Vitiate was fixated on Revan during that moment. Why you keep forgetting that?
When Palpatine was fixated on Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader found the opportunity to kill Palpatine during that moment. Per your logic, Palpatine's awareness as a combatant is rather lackluster.
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Let me clarify my position a bit. I acknowledge that their is always a possibility for a move to succeed in a fight that involves a Strike Team. A member of the Strike Team can get lucky during the course of combat and score a hit on the lone target. However, Vitiate has monstrous AoE capabilities. If he makes his move first and subjects the entire Strike Team to his powers with no member lucky enough to escape contact, the Strike Team is done for.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 09:30 AM
My case had nothing to do with whether he was a Dark Jedi or Sith by that point. What I said was that he had fallen — to the dark side. Vitiate establishing mental dominion is a nice feat but both Revan and Malak's minds were compromised, and Vitiate had the benefit of preparation in that scenario (it was an orchestrated trap from the beginning).
Just like Vitiate swatted inferior Strike Teams on dark side nexuses in Revan and TOR?
He saw visions of both the team and Vitiate winning, and wasn't sure which was more likely. The reason he betrayed Revan was because he foresaw the HoT beating Vitiate.
As I said, an inferior Strike Team than this one was able to beat Vitiate for a respectable fraction of scenarios that Scourge envisioned, and this was on a dark side nexus. On neutral ground, a superior strike team such as this one would indeed claim novel Vitiate's head every time. On a nexus, Vitiate would fare better but still lose.
These are overall rankings, not just power.
Mace is factually more skilled than Revan Reborn and factually more powerful than the incarnation of Revan at the beginning of the novel, if not Revan Reborn himself.
Novel Meetra Surik on a Dromund Kaas' nexus has nothing to place her above Jinn humbling Anoon Bondara or matching Maul for periods of time.
HoT beat Angral with Kira Karsen's assisstance, and nowhere was it stated to be a slaughter. Angral's fights with Baras have consisted of him attacking Baras to no avail, and then Baras either throwing his lightsaber aside or stomping Angral with Lightning — favorable showings for Baras, not Angral. When did Angral ever stalemate Satele?
Orgus is apparently the most experienced member of the Order when it comes to fighting Sith, but even an accolade such as that isn't particularly meritable when we're talking about fighters of this calibre. Especially when all we have for him in combat is losing to Angral twice and an embarrassing performance in the Jedi Knight prologue. He's a joke.
The cave-in feat is decent but not an in-combat showing, and we have reason to suspect that without the luxury of uninterrupted concentration, he would fail to replicate that feat.
The opening cutscene has Braga catching HoT mid-air with a Force Push and then throwing an object at them. That's it. Not enough to prove that he ultimately presented a significant challenge to the HoT throughout the fight. And Sedoru and Narezz are completely devoid of any connotations that they challenged HoT.
Evidently you rank Satele a lot higher than I do, because I see Mace as being able to cream her. She's devoid of comparable saber feats/accolades and is less powerful.
Right, but the novel explicitly states that Vitiate focusing on taking over Revan's mind left him open to counterattack, a fact that Revan exploited. It would be the same here. If Vitiate aimed for Mace's mind, one of the others would simply use Saber Throw and cut off the Emperor's head.
Vitiate couldn't swiftly break the inferior team in the novel on a DS nexus, nor could he break a similarly inferior team in TOR when he was more powerful than he was in the novel (and we're using novel Vitiate here). There's absolutely no precedent for coming to such a conclusion.
If we were placing Palpatine in a situation where he was enraged that his plans had failed, that he was torturing and enjoying an adversary's pain whilst being set upon by a person that he specifically placed trust in, then yes, I would suggest that said person could kill Palpatine as well.
Vitiate didn't have any such excuses. He was just preparing to kill Revan and that was enough to leave him vulnerable to a Saber Throw. Such a situation would be easily replicable here, where his attention would be concentrated on any one character and another Jedi would just hurl a saber and lop off the Emperor's head.
Not seeing how that happens when Vitiate couldn't do that to Revan, Surik and Scourge on a DS nexus. Here on neutral ground and against a stronger Strike Force, he's done for, and the Jedi don't need to be lucky to end him.
You were basically alone on that interpretation, lol.
Unless I'm mistaken, your first scan had him talking about how this stuff belongs to Legends and not Canon, and the second scan talks about how newer material retcons older ones. That was it.
Feb 24th, 2017 10:15 PM
