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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Kenobi vs Maul: How Did It Happen?


Kenobi vs Maul: How Did It Happen?
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samappo
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Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Your quote won't show up unless quick quoted. Annoying. It isn't up to me to disprove your Palpatine planned on losing theory. You have to first prove it. Your biased claims need to be verified. That's how it works. When guys clearly light saber duel unless proven we assume each party wants to win.

Maul lost due to being out of his prime. Context always matters. The rest has been discussed ad naesuem. Windu prevailed and Palpatine used his cunning to manipulate Anakin. End of story. If you feel otherwise prove it. You quote some book doesn't mean what you believe it does. You're only seeing what you want to like a religious fanatic.

Palaptine was unable to do so with his lightning and it was reflected back into his own face. Only when Anakin intervened that was when Sheev was successful with striking him with fl.

False. We don't assume the more outlandish one is true when nothing has been shown visually or implied it was a force ghost. All other times it was clear. You're reaching and even then that has nothing to do with Tano vs. Vader since it was the explosion not his skill in a duel, kiddo.

He was lucky to survive since it was by mere chance Anakin intervened. He relied on the help of another to gain the advantage on Windu.

You do realize cowardice has nothing to do with skill level of a warrior.


Dooku being in a tier below Yoda only makes him more the moron. You also claim he may have held back despite the gravity of the situation which affected the entire galaxy. A Jedi aren't supposed to give into emotion so the leader of the Jedi aka the supposed wisest you claim even fell victim. Thanks for the assist. He's an idiot since he either held back or just plain didn't deliver against an inferior opponent.


Maul's fate wasn't tied to rebels prior to their meeting in clone wars or SoD. That's the difference since Kenobi's fate was the first Star Wars movie. Do you understand the difference and they were free to kill Maul off at any point and that his fate hadn't been set in stone whereas Kenobi's was.

Maul lost due to being overconfident and not pressing. I have never denied this as always I go by the facts.

Plaguies isn't canon yet. I'm also saying Palpatine trying to flee from a one on one situation against a tier 9 peer is cowardice.


Let me clarify here. Sidious planned overall to convert Anakin to the dark side. He was succesful, the fact that Mace disarmed him makes Mace the superior duelist (only due to Vaapad and shatterpoint). But Sidious knew Anakin was there, so he played the innocent coward card.

quote:
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine’s eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."


Sidious' lightning surpassed even Vaapad. When Sidious went all out (we don't even know if he was even going all out) he would kill Mace with force powers alone. Lightsaber combat is irrelevant, considering that Mace is canonically an 8 and only a 9 when he uses Vaapad which makes it impossible for Sidious to defeat him in a lightsaber duel.

It's not like Sidious' conversion of Anakin using Windu was mere coincidence, it was obviously set up. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? Sidious, as shown by that quote could outright surpass Vaapad with his force abilities.

So Sidious tried to escape Yoda, so what? He spend decade upon decade training hardcore and orchestrating in order to become emperor of the galaxy, and he wasn't willing to stake it all on vsing the greatest Jedi of his time.

Regardless, Sidious won, Yoda lost. Deal with it.

Okay, well, if Dooku was the need to run after 20-30 seconds of lightsaber combat then I guess Yoda was kicking his ass. If Dooku had stayed, he would have died by Yoda's hand. End of story.

Wow, using plot armor to make excuses.... 'Of course Kenobi won he couldn't die yet.'

That doesn't mean Lucas made him do incredible feats. What Kenobi did do was in accordance to fact and realism. Realistically, Kenobi was an apprentice and Maul outsmarted and defeated him. Kenobi lost to Dooku like a *****. Just because Lucas knows Kenobi has to be in the original trilogy that doesn't mean he gave Kenobi incredible feats and so forth to make him look cool.

So I make three solid points of Sidious taking pain and being strong and all you have to say is 'Plagueis isn't canon yet.' That's a bit pathetic, to put it in your words. And technically, Plagueis is canon, the book isn't though.

There's a lot of things I said that you haven't addressed Quanchi. Didn't you like tasting your own medicine?


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 29th, 2017 11:19 PM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Let me clarify here. Sidious planned overall to convert Anakin to the dark side. He was succesful, the fact that Mace disarmed him makes Mace the superior duelist (only due to Vaapad and shatterpoint). But Sidious knew Anakin was there, so he played the innocent coward card.
Let me be clear he did plan on converting him but he didn't plan on being disarmed by Windu and being at his mercy. He didn't initially play the innocent or weak card only after his fl attacks failed and he was vulnerable ad at Mace's mercy.

quote:

Sidious' lightning surpassed even Vaapad. When Sidious went all out (we don't even know if he was even going all out) he would kill Mace with force powers alone. Lightsaber combat is irrelevant, considering that Mace is canonically an 8 and only a 9 when he uses Vaapad which makes it impossible for Sidious to defeat him in a lightsaber duel.[/B]
The showings matter not your silly old reasoning. He didn't kill Windu with his force powers. He didn't kill even old, frail Yoda with a a first hit with his fl so please quit being a fanboy. Facts matter not your fanboyish imagination.

quote:


It's not like Sidious' conversion of Anakin using Windu was mere coincidence, it was obviously set up. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? Sidious, as shown by that quote could outright surpass Vaapad with his force abilities.[/B]
I did not deny Sheev planting the seeds to manipulate Anakin but I do doubt Sidious planning to lose while in the middle of a duel in order to do so. That's silly. He didn't even foresee a one handed Vader turning on him without a weapon but you want me to believe he was aware of all of this and without a shred of proof to support such wild and baseless conjecture.
quote:

So Sidious tried to escape Yoda, so what? He spend decade upon decade training hardcore and orchestrating in order to become emperor of the galaxy, and he wasn't willing to stake it all on vsing the greatest Jedi of his time.
[/B]
Thats why he's a coward. He isn't a warrior trying to test his mettle he's a bully and when his advantage was lost he tried fleeing. Cowardice. Undeniable. You're free to still enjoy him but make no mistake he displayed cowardice in a fair fight against an evenly matched opponent. Prior to he was cackling and acting like an arrogant buffoon.

quote:

Regardless, Sidious won, Yoda lost. Deal with it.[/B]
I do accept Sidious won and fully admit Yoda is a failure. That doesn't make Sidious any less of a coward for trying to flee in the midst of their one on one battle.
quote:

Okay, well, if Dooku was the need to run after 20-30 seconds of lightsaber combat then I guess Yoda was kicking his ass. If Dooku had stayed, he would have died by Yoda's hand. End of story.

Wow, using plot armor to make excuses.... 'Of course Kenobi won he couldn't die yet.'[/B]
Speculation. He did what he needed to do to survive when Yoda knew he needed to stop Dooku to prevent a galactic conflict. Failure against a weaker opponent.

I'm explaining the obvious. Kenobi's fate was sealed Maul's wasn't.
quote:

That doesn't mean Lucas made him do incredible feats. What Kenobi did do was in accordance to fact and realism. Realistically, Kenobi was an apprentice and Maul outsmarted and defeated him. Kenobi lost to Dooku like a *****. Just because Lucas knows Kenobi has to be in the original trilogy that doesn't mean he gave Kenobi incredible feats and so forth to make him look cool.

So I make three solid points of Sidious taking pain and being strong and all you have to say is 'Plagueis isn't canon yet.' That's a bit pathetic, to put it in your words. And technically, Plagueis is canon, the book isn't though.

There's a lot of things I said that you haven't addressed Quanchi. Didn't you like tasting your own medicine? [/B]
I didn't say he did but we all knew Dooku couldn't kill him. Kenobi was an apprentice as was Maul. Maul killed his master. I love how the double standard just gets used against Maul but people conveniently forget Maul was an apprentice as well. We've already been over the context.

Plaguies is the random lines we were served in rots but what you said isn't canon. Must I spell everything out for you. Sidious didn't take pain very well for his own force lightning or the fright he experienced while Vader tossed him to his death.

What didn't I address ? I had to quick quote it so looking up I tried to respond to the pertinent stuff as best I could. Kmc sometimes won't allow a regular quote because this site has gone downhill due to Raz's neglect.


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Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 04:12 AM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Petrus
Oh you mean like when Maul screamed in terror begging for Sidious to stop torturing him, with a clear look of fear in his face? Yeah that's the very definition of bravery. smile

Anyway, cowardice is honestly a common trait among Sith, so it's not like it matters.
Completely different. That isn't cowardice when you've lost the duel. He wanted mercy but he had the courage to take on Sidious in a duel. That's bravery despite Palpatine being superior.

Palpatine tried fleeing from an even skilled and powerful opponent. Palpatine is a scummy politician and cowardly mastermind first and foremost. He's powerful but he isn't brave. The Yoda scene confirms it.


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Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 04:15 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Let me be clear he did plan on converting him but he didn't plan on being disarmed by Windu and being at his mercy. He didn't initially play the innocent or weak card only after his fl attacks failed and he was vulnerable ad at Mace's mercy.


No he did not plan on being disarmed by Windu. He did not foresee Vaapad and shatterpoint. But the quote from the novelisation clearly shows that his FL can kill Mace. End of story.

quote:
The showings matter not your silly old reasoning. He didn't kill Windu with his force powers. He didn't kill even old, frail Yoda with a a first hit with his fl so please quit being a fanboy. Facts matter not your fanboyish imagination.


The novelisation clearly infers that Sidious could kill mace with his force powers.

quote:
I did not deny Sheev planting the seeds to manipulate Anakin but I do doubt Sidious planning to lose while in the middle of a duel in order to do so. That's silly. He didn't even foresee a one handed Vader turning on him without a weapon but you want me to believe he was aware of all of this and without a shred of proof to support such wild and baseless conjecture.


I did not say that he was aware that Vader would throw him down the shaft.

quote:
Thats why he's a coward. He isn't a warrior trying to test his mettle he's a bully and when his advantage was lost he tried fleeing. Cowardice. Undeniable. You're free to still enjoy him but make no mistake he displayed cowardice in a fair fight against an evenly matched opponent. Prior to he was cackling and acting like an arrogant buffoon.


I don't care if he displayed cowardice, he still beat Yoda when it came to a fight.

quote:
I do accept Sidious won and fully admit Yoda is a failure. That doesn't make Sidious any less of a coward for trying to flee in the midst of their one on one battle.
Speculation. He did what he needed to do to survive when Yoda knew he needed to stop Dooku to prevent a galactic conflict. Failure against a weaker opponent.


It's not speculation. It's fact. The comic shows that Yoda is poning Dooku, and why else would Dooku run. He was smack talking Yoda before, but after 30 seconds of combat he runs.

quote:
I'm explaining the obvious. Kenobi's fate was sealed Maul's wasn't.
I didn't say he did but we all knew Dooku couldn't kill him. Kenobi was an apprentice as was Maul. Maul killed his master. I love how the double standard just gets used against Maul but people conveniently forget Maul was an apprentice as well. We've already been over the context.


Using plot armor to justify why Darth Maul got beat by Kenobi is pointless and just outright weird.

And sure, Darth Maul was an apprentice. That doesn't equate him to Kenobi's level. He was far more trained and skilled than Kenobi. So using the apprentice argument is pointless.

quote:
Plaguies is the random lines we were served in rots but what you said isn't canon. Must I spell everything out for you. Sidious didn't take pain very well for his own force lightning or the fright he experienced while Vader tossed him to his death.


Okay, if we are speaking strictly about canon, then in the novelisation Sidious tanks his own lightning. And even if he didn't take pain very well, he never had to except for his death, because he was that powerful he could just ragdoll almost anyone.

quote:
What didn't I address ? I had to quick quote it so looking up I tried to respond to the pertinent stuff as best I could. Kmc sometimes won't allow a regular quote because this site has gone downhill due to Raz's neglect.


Haha. Nothing.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 05:24 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Completely different. That isn't cowardice when you've lost the duel. He wanted mercy but he had the courage to take on Sidious in a duel. That's bravery despite Palpatine being superior.

Palpatine tried fleeing from an even skilled and powerful opponent. Palpatine is a scummy politician and cowardly mastermind first and foremost. He's powerful but he isn't brave. The Yoda scene confirms it.


Didn't have to be brave to ragdoll Darth Maul rofl.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 05:27 AM
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samappo
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Registered: Mar 2017
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Also, when you say Maul can beat Vader, is this canon or EU that you're referring to?


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 05:30 AM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo


No he did not plan on being disarmed by Windu. He did not foresee Vaapad and shatterpoint. But the quote from the novelisation clearly shows that his FL can kill Mace. End of story.
[/B]
Fl can kill him or hurt him if it hits him. Mace under his own abilities in a duel was not struck until that despicable weak coward Anakin switched teams. Windu won. End of story.

quote:

The novelisation clearly infers that Sidious could kill mace with his force powers.



I did not say that he was aware that Vader would throw him down the shaft.
[/B]
Ok and ?

No shit. What makes it bad is that he should foresee Vader jumping ship as a possibility especially because it's his son


quote:

I don't care if he displayed cowardice, he still beat Yoda when it came to a fight.
/B]
I do care. Beating the failure Yoda barely isn't impressive to me but it only further makes Yoda look like an incompetent moron.


quote:

It's not speculation. It's fact. The comic shows that Yoda is poning Dooku, and why else would Dooku run. He was smack talking Yoda before, but after 30 seconds of combat he runs.



Using plot armor to justify why Darth Maul got beat by Kenobi is pointless and just outright weird.[/B]
Yoda had to either defeat or kill him. Dooku had to survive. Dooku survived and wasn't disarmed against a superior opponent. That's called failure on Yoda's end.

I am saying Maul was never going to kill Kenobi. That matters. We hear the creative team reference robbing Kenobi of a kill and wrapping his storyline up before the Ot takes place because he's too big a player to be hanging in the background. I'm fine with it.
quote:

And sure, Darth Maul was an apprentice. That doesn't equate him to Kenobi's level. He was far more trained and skilled than Kenobi. So using the apprentice argument is pointless.[/B]
Which isn't the case with Qui. The only reason Kenobi came out ok is because Maul tainted and didn't press his advantage. You acting as if the context doesn't matter is weird. Quit being strange, man. You can't say one is an apprentice and ignore the other one is an apprentice. Double standards, weirdo.


quote:

Okay, if we are speaking strictly about canon, then in the novelisation Sidious tanks his own lightning. And even if he didn't take pain very well, he never had to except for his death, because he was that powerful he could just ragdoll almost anyone.



Haha. Nothing. [/B]
Yes, he tanks it but is clearly hurt by it. That's why he quit zapping because it was taking its toll on Sidious, it scarred him. Saying he can ragdoll anyone is unprovable and fanboyish. Stop.


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Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 05:43 PM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Didn't have to be brave to ragdoll Darth Maul rofl.
He had the opening and took it. Maul fought back. But Sidious was more powerful and more skilled so he didn't have to be courageous to take on someone he was more talented than. Maul was courageous for taking Sidious on.


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Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 05:44 PM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

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Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Also, when you say Maul can beat Vader, is this canon or EU that you're referring to?
Canon.


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Old Post Mar 30th, 2017 05:45 PM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Canon.


Oh good, because Vader beats Maul in EU. smile


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 31st, 2017 02:39 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
He had the opening and took it. Maul fought back. But Sidious was more powerful and more skilled so he didn't have to be courageous to take on someone he was more talented than. Maul was courageous for taking Sidious on.


Seems like just about anyone is more skilled than Maul. His feats are unimpressive after the duel of fates.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 31st, 2017 02:40 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

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quote:
Fl can kill him or hurt him if it hits him. Mace under his own abilities in a duel was not struck until that despicable weak coward Anakin switched teams. Windu won. End of story.


My bad, I just realised we are talking about official canon. Forget the novel. We only have the movie and official statements. So let me use one of my posts to explain the fight canon-wise.

quote:
I think everything for Palpatine throwing the fight and getting arrogant is enough to conclude it as such. The timing of Anakin, Palpatine having Mace completely exposed, the parallels between ROTS and ROTJ, it's pretty hands down imo. Since we are talking about new canon we can only use the movie I'm pretty sure as well as quotes from GL and Gillard.

quote:
Outwardly frail, Palpatine was in truth a cunning warrior capable of besting even the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat or by conjuring powerfully destructive Force lightning.


quote:
"Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."


quote:
"But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed."


quote:
The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.


quote:
"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."


Bit of a quote overload but we can clearly see that Sidious outranks Mace and Yoda as a duelist in canon. There's just no way in the current canon where you can argue that Mace was just plain better.

In Legends you could make the Vaapad and Shatterpoint argument, but even in Legends I still hold that Sidious planned the outcome.

Therefore according to the movies and statements made by Gillard about the canon, Sidious clearly outstripped Mace as a duelist, he is seen exposing Mace with his lightsaber at least once, and is disarmed just as Anakin is entering.

To further explain Mace disarming Sidious, as well as Sidious appearing to be pushed back by Mace, consider this:

quote:
...he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him.


This statement suggests even further that Sidious drew Mace in, and that Sidious was in fact not arrogant and in control the entirety of the time.



That should conclude that according to canon Sidious was in complete control. Don't care if Mace won, the context shows Sidious was a better duelist and drew Mace in, being disarmed just as Anakin walks in.

quote:
No shit. What makes it bad is that he should foresee Vader jumping ship as a possibility especially because it's his son.


He made a boo boo. Oh look, in his how many years as Emperor he made a boo boo. That's not as embarrassing as Darth Maul losing to Kanan and Old Ben when his entire life was revolved around killing Kenobi, then gets ****ed up in three moves.

quote:
I do care. Beating the failure Yoda barely isn't impressive to me but it only further makes Yoda look like an incompetent moron.


Yoda isn't a failure? At least not as much a failure as Maul was.

quote:
Yoda had to either defeat or kill him. Dooku had to survive. Dooku survived and wasn't disarmed against a superior opponent. That's called failure on Yoda's end.


It was only 30 seconds and Dooku is recognised as one of a few that can actually contend with Yoda. Of course he's going to put up a fight, but runs when he realises Yoda WILL disarm/kill him.[/quote]

quote:
Which isn't the case with Qui. The only reason Kenobi came out ok is because Maul tainted and didn't press his advantage. You acting as if the context doesn't matter is weird. Quit being strange, man. You can't say one is an apprentice and ignore the other one is an apprentice. Double standards, weirdo.


Uhh, yeah I can say that. In TPM before Sheev becomes chancellor he is an apprentice is he not? Yet he could take on any Jedi and come out on top (except maybe Yoda depending on circumstances). So if Yoda happened to get lucky and win, I could just say wellll Sheev was still a Sith apprentice so it wasn't fair? LOL. The word means nothing. Maul was an apprentice of a Sith Lord, the only Sith Lord. It's not like he can take trials and become a Sith Knight or something. There can only be a master and an apprentice. Since when does title mean anything? TPM Sheev is still an apprentice but could take on any Jedi. Doesn't mean anything.

quote:
Yes, he tanks it but is clearly hurt by it. That's why he quit zapping because it was taking its toll on Sidious, it scarred him. Saying he can ragdoll anyone is unprovable and fanboyish. Stop.


He zapped himself for quite a while. And probably did it that long to appear ****ed up for Anakin.

unprovable????. FANBOYISH? That's funny. If Sheev can ragdoll Savage and Darth Maul at the same time and not even try, I'm pretty sure most people on their level or below would be ragdolled, am I right?


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Mar 31st, 2017 02:57 AM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Oh good, because Vader beats Maul in EU. smile
Eu doesn't count. Why would we argue over such nonsense.


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Old Post Apr 1st, 2017 12:57 PM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

Registered: May 2007
Location: Ohio


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Seems like just about anyone is more skilled than Maul. His feats are unimpressive after the duel of fates.
False and a ridiculous statement.


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Old Post Apr 1st, 2017 12:59 PM
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quanchi112
Supreme Snoke

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
My bad, I just realised we are talking about official canon. Forget the novel. We only have the movie and official statements. So let me use one of my posts to explain the fight canon-wise.




That should conclude that according to canon Sidious was in complete control. Don't care if Mace won, the context shows Sidious was a better duelist and drew Mace in, being disarmed just as Anakin walks in.
So your argument boils down to hey the New England Patriots were better than the New York Giants except for the final outcome of the Super Bowls. Better all year and more skilled but they lost. Sidious being disarmed and at Windu's mercy shows he wasn't in complet control. Quotes don't change the facts. When they faced off Windu won. Period.

quote:

He made a boo boo. Oh look, in his how many years as Emperor he made a boo boo. That's not as embarrassing as Darth Maul losing to Kanan and Old Ben when his entire life was revolved around killing Kenobi, then gets ****ed up in three moves.
[/B]
It is far worse for a mastermind to let an obvious worry completely in the rear view to be caught completely off guard. Darth Maul was lost and broken without the resources of a galactic empire. Sidious had galactic resources and put himself in that vulnerable position when he didn't have to. Maul had no choice and was acting alone. Maul surviving Kenobi was amazing and greater than Palpatine he was just tossed without being injured or cut in half.

quote:


Yoda isn't a failure? At least not as much a failure as Maul was.



It was only 30 seconds and Dooku is recognised as one of a few that can actually contend with Yoda. Of course he's going to put up a fight, but runs when he realises Yoda WILL disarm/kill him.[/B]
Yoda is a much bigger failure. Yoda lost an entire Jedi order and was caught off guard completely by Sidious and his plans.

He successfully fled and was not defeated by a superior opponent. That's on yoda as another massive failure. He failed against Sidious. The guy lost it all and failed. He also prevented to stop Luke from running off to face Vader in ESB.


quote:

Uhh, yeah I can say that. In TPM before Sheev becomes chancellor he is an apprentice is he not? Yet he could take on any Jedi and come out on top (except maybe Yoda depending on circumstances). So if Yoda happened to get lucky and win, I could just say wellll Sheev was still a Sith apprentice so it wasn't fair? LOL. The word means nothing. Maul was an apprentice of a Sith Lord, the only Sith Lord. It's not like he can take trials and become a Sith Knight or something. There can only be a master and an apprentice. Since when does title mean anything? TPM Sheev is still an apprentice but could take on any Jedi. Doesn't mean anything.[/B]
We don't know what levels he was at when he was an apprentice. Point is you can't use that as a means to downplay maul and ignore it the other way. Hypocrisy. Maul killed a Jedi master. Just stop already with your silliness and double standards. You are beginning to disgust me with your flimsy excuses for why it's different.


quote:

He zapped himself for quite a while. And probably did it that long to appear ****ed up for Anakin.

unprovable????. FANBOYISH? That's funny. If Sheev can ragdoll Savage and Darth Maul at the same time and not even try, I'm pretty sure most people on their level or below would be ragdolled, am I right? [/B]
Speculation which doesn't make sense. He already raged out and tried to kill him in front of Anakin. What you say doesn't make sense.

The opening was there you don't know how Star Wars works. We see ventress have both Kenobi and Anakin at her mercy with a force choke. That means the opening was there not that she can do it whenever she wants.

No, you're wrong since Yoda is above Dooku and can't ragdoll him to defeat him at any time he wants. Just stop posting you noob.


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Old Post Apr 1st, 2017 01:17 PM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
So your argument boils down to hey the New England Patriots were better than the New York Giants except for the final outcome of the Super Bowls. Better all year and more skilled but they lost. Sidious being disarmed and at Windu's mercy shows he wasn't in complet control. Quotes don't change the facts. When they faced off Windu won. Period.


Not familiar with football my friend, can't help you there.

Did you even read what I quoted as my opinion on Mace and Sidious' duel? There is plenty of canon evidence to suggest Sheev being in complete control of the fight, and lacking evidence to suggest Mace legitimately disarmed Sidious. Please provide some if you have it, other than just your opinion.

Unless you can prove with canon evidence that Mace was the superior fighter, you will be forced to concede since my assessment of the battle does use canon evidence to support my claims.

quote:
It is far worse for a mastermind to let an obvious worry completely in the rear view to be caught completely off guard. Darth Maul was lost and broken without the resources of a galactic empire. Sidious had galactic resources and put himself in that vulnerable position when he didn't have to. Maul had no choice and was acting alone. Maul surviving Kenobi was amazing and greater than Palpatine he was just tossed without being injured or cut in half.


Both are equally to blame for their temporary incompetence and lack of guard.

quote:
Yoda is a much bigger failure. Yoda lost an entire Jedi order and was caught off guard completely by Sidious and his plans.

He successfully fled and was not defeated by a superior opponent. That's on yoda as another massive failure. He failed against Sidious. The guy lost it all and failed. He also prevented to stop Luke from running off to face Vader in ESB.


Yoda was caught off guard because Sidious could completely mask his signature in the force, and his plans were entirely unexpected when they happened.

He was defeated by a superior opponent.

"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."

George Lucas also confirms that Sheev was superior.

quote:
We don't know what levels he was at when he was an apprentice. Point is you can't use that as a means to downplay maul and ignore it the other way. Hypocrisy. Maul killed a Jedi master. Just stop already with your silliness and double standards. You are beginning to disgust me with your flimsy excuses for why it's different.


Sith and Jedi apprentices have different power levels. Depending on how much time they've been an apprentice, specific training etc. Apprentice is a title, nothing more, it does not gauge one's level necessarily. Maul was an apprentice because that's the only position he could fill, other than being master. He was trained purely for combat, whereas Kenob and Jinn had extensive training and experience in a lot of things other that lightsaber combat.

Maul was more extensively trained, was using a unique weapon (saber-staff) to further confuse his opponents, and was significantly younger than Qui-Gon.

If we include the novelisation, it clearly states Jinn keeps up with Maul as an equal until his stamina and old age entirely gives out. So I'd give age to be the defining factor rather than anything.

I do not doubt though that Maul could defeat most Jedi in lightsaber combat, par anyone higher than Jinn (so Mace, Yoda, Dooku and so forth).

quote:
Speculation which doesn't make sense. He already raged out and tried to kill him in front of Anakin. What you say doesn't make sense.


Speculation? Prove that Sheev was actually trying to kill Windu. There's no evidence. It makes more sense that he was holding back. Killing Windu outright would not convert Anakin would it? He needed Anakin to make a move to turn him. You're just outright wrong.

quote:
The opening was there you don't know how Star Wars works. We see ventress have both Kenobi and Anakin at her mercy with a force choke. That means the opening was there not that she can do it whenever she wants.


Ventress doing that was a result of her getting extremely angry and using the dark side. Hence why Yoda describes it as a quick path to power. It's the same as Savage choking Dooku and Ventress, in moments of extreme anger the dark sides amps you.

quote:
No, you're wrong since Yoda is above Dooku and can't ragdoll him to defeat him at any time he wants. Just stop posting you noob.


Assuming Sidious and Yoda are roughly equal force-wise, then that means Yoda can ragdoll Maul. Dooku is above Maul, and unlike his Zaabrak counterpart, is a Jedi of advanced age and has developed his force powers to a significant degree for defense, unlike Maul. And do not forget, Dooku > Maul and this is clearly proven in a lot of ways, including the fact that he can't be ragdolled by a Sidious/Yoda level combatant, yet Maul can be.


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The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Apr 2nd, 2017 04:12 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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WTF does the giants upsetting the fcks from new england have to do with sw?

Anyway in canon, there's no real basis for mace not legtimately being able to compete with sidious

Old Post Apr 2nd, 2017 04:31 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

There is a basis for Sidious controlling the fight and being a superior duelist. Like I told Quanchi, unless you've got evidence from canon showing Mace to be on par as a duelist, there's only evidence to the contrary, that Sidious was the superior fighter and was controlling the events, and therefore unless new information is released it can only be inferred through canon evidence that Sidious controlled the fight and exaggerated an opening to let Mace disarm him exactly as Anakin was about to walk in.

However, if you do provide evidence to back up Mace legitimately competing with Sidious then I'm happy to concede.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Apr 2nd, 2017 04:52 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

Mace and sidious don't have to be equals for mace to be able to compete with sidious.

And we have lucas stating mace and yoda can compete with sidious and given that he has authority over the prequels which are still a fundemental part of canon, we can't just disregard his statement.

We also have the(new) junior novel stating mace was able to hold his own vs sidious.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Apr 2nd, 2017 at 05:10 AM

Old Post Apr 2nd, 2017 05:07 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace and sidious don't have to be equals for mace to be able to compete with sidious.

And we have lucas stating mace and yoda can compete with sidious and given that he has authority over the prequels which are still a fundemental part of canon, we can't just disregard his statement.

We also have the(new) junior novel stating mace was able to hold his own vs sidious.


Yeah but you've got to be relatively close to not get outright beaten. That still fits in with my theory anyway. If Mace was below Sheev than obviously Sheev was playing the whole thing out the way he wanted it to be.

Sure, Mace can *contend*, but canon also explicitly states that Sidious can defeat even the greatest Jedi Warrior in lightsaber combat, is more powerful than Yoda, is ambidextrous and is a master of all forms and weapons. Not withstanding this:

quote:
"It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."


So clearly according to canon, Mace is below Sheev (but still a reasonable contender) and Sheev most likely drew Mace in and waited for the best time to exaggerate an opening and give it to his opponent just before Anakin arrives.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Apr 2nd, 2017 12:54 PM
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