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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Prime Darth Tyranus vs 3 BBY Darth Vader


Prime Darth Tyranus vs 3 BBY Darth Vader
Started by: Azronger

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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites


 

Prime Darth Tyranus vs 3 BBY Darth Vader

Both Legends and Canon feats and accolades are available, with Legends taking priority if contradictions arise.

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out

Who wins?


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 05:10 PM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

Registered: Mar 2014
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Darth Vader.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 05:11 PM
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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

Registered: Jun 2016
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All-out?


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 05:11 PM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

Registered: Mar 2014
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Yes.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 05:12 PM
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Azronger
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I'm genuinely curious as to why.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 05:12 PM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

Registered: Mar 2014
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In both continuities, Vader is more powerful in the Force than Dooku as of this time via his feats, and stated improvement in the Force in Canon.

In canon, Vader actually improved after his injuries, so Canon Vader would likely be the better duelist as well.

In Legends, Vader post ROTS has cybernetics backing his strength for use in Djem So, his physical augmentation as of 18 BBY had already measured up enough for him to be noticeably faster than a slightly post-ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi (and he's had more time to catch up to his former glory since then), and he's had more time to adjust his fighting style to his new suited figure than he originally had to develop it pre-suit to begin with, not to mention some of the skills he had before are transferable. So even as a duelist he would've been built back up at least close to his former glory at this point, and at least on Dooku's level if not better.

So in both continuities Vader's a better Force user, in Canon he's most likely a better duelist as well, and in Legends I'd argue he's at least on par as a duelist if not better.

Vader's edge in the Force is further compounded by his physical durability, meaning that in a Force duel, not only could Vader erect superior barriers and levy superior offensives, but he can take more direct damage as well.

As far as a duel goes, that's a bit more hazy, but to compound more favor for Vader against Dooku in this area is the fact that he stacks up rather well against Dooku. He now has cybernetics backing his physical strength to wield against Dooku to overwhelm him, he has the armoring and physical durability to completely shrug off less kinetic blows (as is the nature of Dooku's fighting style), Vader now has studied Makashi as well so he can better meet the precision advantage of Dooku's fighting style while still retaining the strength advantage of his own fighting style, and Vader is completely familiar with Dooku's fighting style whereas Vader's style is different from what Dooku has faced before.

So Vader has a definite Force edge, and I'd argue a sabers edge as well, though even if he doesn't possess a sabers edge he'd put up enough of a fight in that category to sway the all-out with his Force advantage.


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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"

Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 05:25 PM
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MythLord
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Registered: Feb 2015
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Composite? Backing Dooku for sabers, Vader for Force, and all-out is either way, prolly.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 06:06 PM
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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites


 

I appreciate the detailed answer.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
In both continuities, Vader is more powerful in the Force than Dooku as of this time via his feats, and stated improvement in the Force in Canon.

In canon, Vader actually improved after his injuries, so Canon Vader would likely be the better duelist as well.


Legends takes priority over Canon as per the OP's stipulations. These statements will not be taken into consideration. Legends Vader never reached his former self's level, which is on par Yoda and Palpatine.

quote:
In Legends, Vader post ROTS has cybernetics backing his strength for use in Djem So, his physical augmentation as of 18 BBY had already measured up enough for him to be noticeably faster than a slightly post-ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi (and he's had more time to catch up to his former glory since then), and he's had more time to adjust his fighting style to his new suited figure than he originally had to develop it pre-suit to begin with, not to mention some of the skills he had before are transferable. So even as a duelist he would've been built back up at least close to his former glory at this point, and at least on Dooku's level if not better.


Source for him being faster than Kenobi? Anyway, Dooku is faster than even prime Kenobi, so that's not an advantage Vader has over Dooku.

quote:
The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.


-The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

_____

The logic used to argue he's on Dooku's level as a duelist is flawed. One's aptitude for dueling is derived from the Force, to which Vader has a considerably lesser connection to than Anakin did. He had to built an entirely new method of fighting; only the technical knowledge he had as Anakin can be attributed to Vader, but nothing else.

Feats would also disagree with you here. While Anakin was hindered down to Obi-Wan's level as a Force user (as indicated by their telekinetic stalemate), Obi-Wan conceded inferiority to him as a duelist:

quote:
As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness of any Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands


-Revenge of the Sith junior novel


Contrasted with Vader's performance against a "shadow" of the same Kenobi, it becomes apparent he isn't on par Anakin at all:

quote:
But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

A group of stormtroopers standing in the dock became aware of them. Vader felt rather than saw them notice the strange duel, and sensed the troopers heading toward them.

He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them off would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.


-Death Star

quote:
During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields.


-Fightsaber

quote:
He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.


-Death Star

quote:
When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves.


-Insider


And he's certainly not better than Dooku, who was handling both prime Kenobi and Anakin at once, one-shotting the former with a kick in the comic, managing to control the path of Obi-Wan's blade against his will, and while ultimately challenged, beating Obi-Wan in the novel as well. All while dealing with Anakin. There's no way Vader comes out on top.

quote:
Vader's edge in the Force is further compounded by his physical durability, meaning that in a Force duel, not only could Vader erect superior barriers and levy superior offensives, but he can take more direct damage as well.


Agreed, but durability does not win fights by itself. It only prolongs the inevitable, unless the opponent tires quickly. And while Dooku does, he can fix that with a snap of his fingers:

quote:
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain
knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the
Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years
dropped away.


-Revenge of the Sith novel


quote:
As far as a duel goes, that's a bit more hazy, but to compound more favor for Vader against Dooku in this area is the fact that he stacks up rather well against Dooku. He now has cybernetics backing his physical strength to wield against Dooku to overwhelm him, he has the armoring and physical durability to completely shrug off less kinetic blows (as is the nature of Dooku's fighting style), Vader now has studied Makashi as well so he can better meet the precision advantage of Dooku's fighting style while still retaining the strength advantage of his own fighting style, and Vader is completely familiar with Dooku's fighting style whereas Vader's style is different from what Dooku has faced before.


What strength showings does Vader have that would allow him to overwhelm Dooku? The latter was casually blocking the strikes of Grievous, who is a powerhouse in his own right. Also, even if Vader is stronger, it wouldn't be a big issue for Dooku since his style is based around redirecting strength rather than meeting it head-on.

Also, his armor wouldn't withstand a cho mai (severing of a hand) or a hit to the chest. It only fully protects him from certain places. And again, Vader's durability can only prolong the fight, not make him win it.

What advantage does Vader's style have over Dooku's? Djem So certainly has a weakness Dooku could exploit:

quote:
He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep—the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away—


-Revenge of the Sith novel[/i]

Also, I find arguing form advantages kind of redundant, since in my opinion, unless we're dealing with realitively inexperienced duelists, it is about the user, not the form. Additionally, Dooku is familiar with all the forms of lightsaber combat and has sparred with Grievous many times. I doubt Vader would present anything the Count hasn't dealt with in the past.

Overall, I don't find any of the points you've raised to be enough to negate Dooku's skill advantage, and his overall performance against superior duelists. I don't see any reason as to why Vader would defeat Dooku in a dueling contest.

quote:
So Vader has a definite Force edge, and I'd argue a sabers edge as well, though even if he doesn't possess a sabers edge he'd put up enough of a fight in that category to sway the all-out with his Force advantage.


You haven't elaborated on the Force advantage at all. What is this based on?


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 06:41 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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Do you have a job / school or do you just shit out posts all day lol


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 06:58 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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Vader wins if TFU. Otherwise Dooku.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 06:59 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Do you have a job / school or do you just shit out posts all day lol


Those two are not mutually exclusive. I can post and still be in school.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 07:20 PM
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Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

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Your shit posting responses that big while at school?


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 07:22 PM
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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

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Sometimes, yeah.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 07:39 PM
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Beniboybling
Worst Member

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Vader. Dominating Starkiller in sabers and the Force > losing to Quinlan Vos. And was the greatest of Palpatine's apprentices. thumb up


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 07:52 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]Vader. Dominating Starkiller in sabers and the Force > losing to Quinlan Vos.


Stop trolling and answer seriously.

quote:
And was the greatest of Palpatine's apprentices. :up


Was he already considered that as of 3 BBY?


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 07:59 PM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Stop trolling and answer seriously.
I was answering seriously, Dark Disciple happened, and Dooku takes the L here. smile

quote:
Was he already considered that as of 3 BBY?
Sidious regards him as the greatest Jedi killer of all time looking back during DE, but I imagine the bulk of the Jedi he killed was pre-3BBY, as early as Tarkin refers to his powers as unparalleled, at some point before his initial death calls him his minor masterpiece, and the Dark Empire handbook describes him as the strongest of Palpatine's disciples. There is some wiggle room, but not much.


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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 20th, 2017 at 08:33 PM

Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 08:30 PM
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Geistalt
SilenceThatSpeaksVolumes

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
Composite? Backing Dooku for sabers, Vader for Force, and all-out is either way, prolly.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 09:06 PM
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Kurk
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Dooku in all except maybe force which is close


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 09:12 PM
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playa1258
Fear is the mind killer

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Vader takes all.

Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 09:31 PM
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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]I was answering seriously, Dark Disciple happened, and Dooku takes the L here. smile


This 3 BBY Vader. TFU feats - especially TFU II feats - don't count.

Now, how exactly does Quin's one-off performance against Dooku refute any of the points I've raised so far about Dooku's skill in comparison to Vader?

quote:
Sidious regards him as the greatest Jedi killer of all time looking back during DE, but I imagine the bulk of the Jedi he killed was pre-3BBY, as early as Tarkin refers to his powers as unparalleled, at some point before his initial death calls him his minor masterpiece, and the Dark Empire handbook describes him as the strongest of Palpatine's disciples. There is some wiggle room, but not much.


Vader being the greatest Jedi killer of all time may have been in reference to the amount of Jedi he killed, not that he was the most powerful or skilled.

Quote from Tarkin?

The rest isn't referring to 3 BBY Vader.


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Old Post Mar 20th, 2017 09:35 PM
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