I don't see why not, those events occur between 3BBY and 1BBY, and there is little reason to believe Vader experienced notable gains during this period.
Well for one it demonstrates that Dooku being more classically skilled than his opponent isn't any guarantee of a victory, especially if said opponent can exploit and capitalise on his weaknesses. Vader is more than technically adroit enough to contend with the Count and in that respect will smash him with superior strength, speed and stamina. And the fact that Dooku was succumbing to Anakin's strength as earlier as mid-TCW, doesn't paint a favourable picture of him doing any better here.
Others such as Malgus and Tulak Hord have killed far more Jedi than Vader, its an obvious reference to his effectiveness. In which respect he's apparently better than Dooku.
"You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass."
That's an arbitrary statement, feel free to back it up with anything.
Also, with Legends taking priority, this is still Vader before ANH, at which time he was only a pale shadow of his former self and around Ben Kenobi's level, with Ben being a pale shadow of his RotS self, who in turn is lesser than Dooku.
Where does Dooku succumb to Anakin's strength in mid-TCW? Is this the Naboo one where he was getting angry? We see otherwise in his fights against Anakin in S6, Dark Disciple, the RotS film, the RotS junior novel, etc.
What does TFU retcon? It's long been retconned that Vader fought other Jedi, sure, but I'm not seeing where TFU changes that either he or Ben Kenobi were pale shadows of their former selves. Ben is noted in 2002, 2007 and 2010 (post-TFU/TFU II) respectively to be past his prime.
If you're talking about TFU claiming that Vader's unparalleled, he can be better than Obi-Wan and still on the same level, as he clearly is.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 21st, 2017 at 06:42 PM
That being said, TFU Vader is decidedly more powerful than Dooku in the Force, and indeed boasts (generally) superior physicals. The Count's only saving grace here is skill and agility; possibly speed also.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 21st, 2017 at 06:42 PM
Frankly though the whole shadow of his former self thing shouldn't really do much to be a negative. The fact that Vader was able to do all he did while supposedly in that state and then just growing after is still impressive. Ben ergo with him being able to duel Vader like that then is also good.
Sure. Ferus Olin describes 18BBY Vader as faster than he's seen anyone move bar Yoda which could well put him above Jedi Dooku & Mace, in 14BBY he's moving almost as one with Sidious, who, while holding back, has trashed Maul and blitzed Savage under similar circumstances, and in 1BBY is disinterestedly intercepting Marek's attacks and stonewalling him with an impenetrable defense.
Ben isn't on Vader's level in Force augmentation, and frankly neither is RotS Kenobi, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
In both their Naboo fights yeah. And I never argued Anakin was consistently able to accomplish this, only that Dooku is clearly susceptible. And he's up against a much stronger opponent now, and perhaps even more skilled.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 21st, 2017 at 07:09 PM
1. Yeah; the Obi-Wan that Ferus saw was being repeatedly tagged by teenage Boba. Has Ferus seen Dooku or Mace in action? ANH Vader's speed was relatively matched by ANH Obi-Wan, who's factually slower than RotS Obi-Wan.
In 14BBY he was moving almost as one with the Emperor before it was revealed that his master had shown "so little of his true power".
In 1BBY, that would be the clone. What are his speed feats? I don't recall anything overwhelming. In 2BBY, the original Galen Marek is expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, and this is 3BBY Vader.
2. I'm talking primarily about skill here; Vader doesn't outclass Ben in that. I already said Vader has better physicals than Dooku - what I'm debating here is whether or not the Count's skill edge could make up for his deficits in power and strength/durability, something I haven't reached a judgement on myself.
3. Yeah, 'cuz he was getting angry on Naboo. The fact that he failed to do anything of the sort in all of his later fights against Dooku says something.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 21st, 2017 at 07:27 PM
Near-perfect Juyo duelist is a Kas'im-level accolade, although the clone doesn't actually have that accolade unless you think his skills are actually on par with Galen's. If so, the stark difference in Vader's performance against the two suggests that he grew substantially in that one year. But seeing as this is 3BBY Vader, he doesn't get that feat to begin with.
As for ragdolling frigate busters, that's power, not skill, and the accolade refers to lightsabers skill only (because, you know, it's from Fightsaber, which is an article on saber skill).
I'm using that to say Dooku > RotS Kenobi >> ANH Kenobi in skill, with ANH Obi-Wan being ~ ANH Vader in skill. And this is Vader 3 years before that.
The rest of your post is a given but irrelevant here.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 21st, 2017 at 07:19 PM
Yeah except Kas'im's is a character opinion (iirc), while Galen's is not. And Kas'im lost to a traine while Galen contended with one of the premier lightsaber duelist of the prime of the jedi.
And yeah the clone still has that accolade:
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Let the irony sink in.
The stark differnece is because of circumstances not because Vader grew vastly
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"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
1. The part about Kas'im being the best ever was an opinion. The part about him training his whole life to perfect every form isn't, if I recall correctly. There's people like Kavar who are skilled masters of Juyo anyway.
Regardless, this accolade about Galen being "near-perfect" obviously isn't literal given that Galen is nowhere near perfect (level 10, and he's only a level 8 at best with there being an enormous difference between each level per Gillard). Heck, he gets this accolade at the start of the game, IIRC, by which time he's definitely not an 8. He immediately goes on to get outpaced by Kazdan Paratus and get swiftly put on the back foot by Shaak Ti, as well as "needing all of his skill to survive" against a simulacrum of Darth Desolous that every Padawan beats in order to become a Jedi Knight. Not to mention that an improved Galen goes on to struggle with Maris Brood and Shadow Guards.
Compare that to Anakin, who, whilst hindered, effortlessly cleaved through a master of all forms (and more combat styles than most people would know) and a factually nigh-unparalleled swordsman in Cin Drallig. Not to mention being Palpatine-tier. Yeah, Vader beating Galen doesn't mean he isn't a former shadow of Anakin.
And yeah, I was referring to that quote when I said "unless you think his skills are on par with Galen's", so there's no irony whatsoever. The reason I had reservations before was because none of the clones are perfect, although Starkiller's problem was just emotional, right? If so, fair enough.
2. What circumstances? If there was such a disparity between Vader and SK, the Dark Lord could've beaten Galen during the pre-Dun Moch stage of the duel, but he didn't. Also, Galen's expressly stated to be faster than Vader in the novel, IIRC, whereas SK doesn't appear to be faster than Vader. So it does seem like Vader's improved.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 21st, 2017 at 07:50 PM
Both Mace (I believe) and particularly Dooku were some of the Order's most premier lightsaber instructors, Dooku's duelling instruction videos were mandatory viewing among Padawans, or in other words they are prolific and therefore very high profile duellists. Given that it seems far more unlikely that Ferus hasn't seen a demonstration of either of their talents than that he had.
Acknowledged and addressed.
Inheriting Marek's power and skill for starters, and in regards to Marek being faster that's not really stated. Only that in comparison to Vader being "strong and relentless" Marek was "fast and sly", but that could be more a reference to fighting style than anything, or Marek's greater mobility. More to the point there is little evidence to suggest Vader increased over those years, certainly when the Marek clone faces him again, his only observations were that he was more cautious and his armour had got an upgrade.
Well I've already addressed that in my response to Az. That said, can you prove that Dooku is a superior swordsman to Kenobi?
Irrelevant tbh considering Vader > TCW Anakin even when enraged, though to humour your point he wasn't particularly angry in these instances:
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It does namely that your not reading them properly. On Obao-Diah Dooku exploits the shortcomings of Skywalker & Kenobi's synergy and overpowers Anakin through effective use of leverage. In Dark Disciple little detail is given regarding the fight besides the fact that it went back and forth, which if anything implies at some stages Anakin had the upper hand, in RotS fight, the adult novelisation brings into doubt the reliability of the junior and in the movie he only gains an upper hand in strength through again, leverage.
The examples provided here on the other hand are much more conclusive, and with fewer strings attached.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 21st, 2017 at 07:55 PM
He was outpaced by Paratus because of his mechanical legs, that doesn't diminish his skill in any way. The part about Shaak is right, but I already said that so idfk why you had to bring up again. And he did not f-ucking struggle with Maris lmao, he stomped her
And it's cute how you try to dimiss his accolde, it still means he's f-ucking skilled. And then there's the quote too that says he's as good a duelist as he is powerful in the Force...
The irony is that the quote is from you.
Sigh...Except it was confirmed that Vader didn't take him seriously, and then the Dun Möch kicked it. So yeah, all around useless feat for Galen.
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Starkiller busted a frigate when he was in Oneness. He cannot bring that power to bear in a fight and Vader ragdolling him (which only happened in the Wii version btw) doesn't mean he can bust a frigate himself.
It's weird though that people argue that Marek could have only done this because of his intense love for Juno who was facing death should he fail, when in the fight in which Marek was ragdolled by Vader, Marek was fighting out of intense love for Juno who facing death (if not being already dead) should he fail.
And btw, the Wii version is no less canon than the rest. Sad times.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 21st, 2017 at 08:40 PM
Mar 20th, 2017 09:51 PM
