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I agree with you that the people really thinking Vader beating someone with a sub-Kas'im level accolade puts him close to Anakin level is wrong... but come on. Drallig>Galen is ridiculous.
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Dooku's described in LoE as the Order's most "agile" instructor, I assume that means he's one of the best. Not sure about Windu, but I recall him sparring with Kenobi. And Dooku had lessons on lightsaber combat in the Great Holocron I believe, but I'll have to look into that. Olin's remarks being from a 2007 book, which is fairly recent. Dark Lord (2005) has him being described as "lightning-fast".
I never said anything about them being identical. In fact I'd argue Sidious was faster in LotS seeing as well as growing more powerful the Lylek Queen & her horde were a greater threat. Moreover as far from "never wavering from his position of superiority" the Queen had Palpy quite literally on his back, and certainly he didn't toy with his opponents.
Vader's suit restricting his mobility and Lucas describing him as a crippled half robot is to state the obvious, but rather redundant in proving Vader to be slower than Maul, Dooku or anyone else. Fact remains he is still preternaturally fast, and through superior augmentation, could be faster than any of them.
It proves nothing concrete and Vader's superior speed is demonstrated in TFU II. And Zoltan is correct in pointing out it to be circumstantial. Marek used Dun Moch to undermine his concentration and his resolve, giving him the victory, before that Vader managed to land two glancing hits. TFU II further indicating that Vader underestimated him in that duel. And once again if Vader had notably improved, Starkiller would have noted it.
Fair enough, though that's one of several.
Well first we have to account for Dooku's greater Force augmentation, which plays a significant part in the majority of which you've referred. We are assessing the sheer skill by which he was able to compete with Vader, in which respect Mace regarded Kenobi as his peer and was indeed outperformed by him against Grievous. I'd say that puts him in his league, as does the Count shitting his pants over his Soresu reveal. And as far as RotS being an outlier is concerned, I'll address that later.
In regards to how they compare to Anakin, amazingly the junior novelisation is wrong, Gillard puts Anakin at a 9, so he's surpassed the Count too, whereas with his immense power stifled on Mustafar, Anakin & Kenobi were indeed described as evenly matched.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 03:33 PM
The point isn't that Dooku succumbs to Anakin's strength consistently, only repeatedly, in which respect Vader being much stronger means Dooku will be succumbing much more often, and to much greater effect, or rather he's in for a butt-blasting.
Again it might not have been so much a big deal then, it will be against a far stronger opponent.
But no I wouldn't say that at all. And I'm not sure how you fathomed that from his expression of strain, not surprise (which makes no sense given he just overpowered him), before resorting to creating distraction to escape, while (maybe) holding back his blade for a meaningless split-second. Later Dooku uses his Magnaguards to force Anakin to break off, before he can push any meaningful advantage. So that's not a very fair example. Regardless your wrong:
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We see Anakin leaning forward and his blade getting larger with proximity. Guy can't even hold him back for 1 second. Sad.
And naturally this excuse loses all weight when it came to their second engagement in which Anakin overpowers him, again.
These added contexts don't hold water at all I'm afraid, if Dooku underestimated Anakin he wouldn't have brought four elite Magnaguards as backup. He's already noted how Anakin's skills had grown significantly between AotC and the TCW movie, despite only a few months having passed, Anakin having in AotC already demonstrated surprising power and skill. We are two years into the war now, and Anakin possessed the immense potential of the Chosen One, common sense dictates he's advanced dramatically, and Dooku has a least a bit of this. Moreover Anakin's reputation would precede him, and with Dooku being privy to the intimate details of Anakin's private life this reputation would certainly have reached his ears. He has little excuse to underestimate Anakin, and from his approach it is clear to me that he did not.
Nah he threw him off with telekinesis, I realise this wasn't clear from the gif. And like I said, Vader > Enraged Anakin. That should be quite obvious given in rage mode he couldn't fully overpower Barriss whereas Vader almost disarmed Marek with his opening salvo. Though I'll overlook the fact that from Anakin looking all mean you've determined he was bloodlusted.
And while we're on the topic I should also add:
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Had that been Vader he'd have lost his nose.
Really? I thought having the high ground was a good thing.
And my point is that those examples you've raised don't prove the others to be outliers. Though it also makes sense that with frequent encounters Dooku would get better at predicting and handling him, that's certainly the approach they took with Obi and Maul.
The RotS novel is both the primary novelisation and the novelisation line-edited by Lucas himself. It's absolutely the more reliable source. You argue that the junior novel more closely aligns with the film and yet the scene in which Anakin and Dooku fought "down the long length of the room" doesn't occur anywhere in the film, instead we get Anakin driving Dooku up the staircase and at one point blowing threw Dooku's guard, a few seconds of inconclusive fighting and then an extended period of Anakin shoving his lightsaber up Dooku's nethers. It doesn't hold water.
Finally while the primary novelisations depiction of Anakin in this fight closely aligns with Gillard's description of Anakin as "unbeatable" and the most powerful Jedi ever. The junior novelisation's depiction of Anakin as only Dooku's equal, does not.
The adult novelisation depicts a scenario in which Anakin and Kenobi off-balance Dooku under which circumstances he gets ploughed. In the movie Dooku's composure goes unshaken (and thanks to TCW is experienced fighting them) and is able to seemingly hold his own. I say seemingly because in the end its all just a flashy lightshow, from the movies alone you might infer that Dooku and Yoda were fighting evenly, and yet secondary sources are unanimous in describing the Count as outclassed. The other points you've raised are either present in the novelisation or not present in the film.
Regardless by the stipulation of the OP, Legends takes precedence anyway.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 03:39 PM
Well for starters Starkiller was not lit up like a fairy lamp as before, which is also customarily how major Oneness states are depicted in Legends. And though one could argue it was simply not mentioned already the comparison is circumspect. Secondly Starkiller did not die, whereas releasing "all the power of the Force" in TFU killed him.
Now to address the similarities you've drawn, first that dying brings out the best in him, yes it's a reference to the aforementioned feat, but that's all it is, a reference, Starkiller no means of knowing whether or not he's about to phase into Oneness, he's merely reassuring himself that death is not something to be scared of - the fact that again he did not die, but instead emerged relatively unscathed, only serving to highlight how this instance things ended up different.
Finally the fact that he unleashed "all the power of the Force within him" only proves it was a feat of maximum effort, whether or not it was a state of Oneness only determines how much Force energy that would have been.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 04:15 PM
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
He died because Palpatine killed him. It's stated in the novel he didn't feel his own attack, yet still saw it. If he didn't feel it, then it obviously couldn't have hit him, and if he saw it, then he was obviously alive as the blast went off.
-The Force Unleashed
It also lists people who were engulfed in the explosion, and there is no mention of Galen. The only explanation that remains is that the Emperor killed him with lightning. Thus, this cannot be used as evidence against my case.
And yeah, simply because he wasn't mentioned as glowing doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, not every Oneness feat is described as the user glowing, so again, that can't be used to dismiss my case. For example:
-Jedi Trial
If you want to dismiss it on the basis that it is not explicitly stated, then I guess you have a point, but I'd disagree. Personally, I'd say the implications are strong enough to count it as a state of Oneness. Sure, you can say Starkiller didn't know it was going to happen, but he didn't know it was going to happen the first time either. He simply embraced the Force as fully as he could and as a result entered Oneness. Here Starkiller is embracing the Force just as fully and has the exact same mindset and drive to save his loved one, so why wouldn't he enter Oneness here?
1. So what if she was in charge of the Temple defense? In what way does that stop Drallig from being part of it all the same? The fact that he's head of all those Temple security forces may make him obliged to remain in the Temple as he was throughout the War. Alternatively, as I said, he might've just been staying to train the padawans, which he was doing throughout the War despite being one of the Order's top swordsmen as per Insider #87.
2. Actually, that attests to Cin's skill as of TPM alone, since the B-team were already big game by then, IIRC, and Cin has some time to grow as well (albeit probably less than the B-team). And obviously Dooku not meeting Anakin until AotC/disliking him personally is the reason for him excluding Anakin. All the same, his citation of Drallig's skill remains impressive; we know that by TPM alone he belongs in the upper echelons of duelists and would pose a reasonable threat to Grievous at least. It doesn't definitively put Drallig above them but it helps.
3. He was put on the backfoot immediately against Maris, then stalled with Soresu before switching to Juyo to overwhelm her (she was unfamiliar with Juyo and thus couldn't counter it). There's no stomp there. For the Shadow Guards, there's one where Galen nearly gets knocked flat by one of their strikes, but here's them fighting back and forth which suggests that Galen couldn't beat the Guard easily:
And at the end of the day, the degree to which he improved is entirely arbitrary. We just know he did. In what way does that put him above Shaak? He was floundering against her, IIRC.
4. lol Saesee fell after watching Agen die, and both failed to block a single strike; Kit himself blocked one or two before Mace saved him from another blow (he would've died then) and then he fell in another one or two strikes. Cin at least parried two or three blows straight. The B-team's performance was worse except possibly Kit's.
Palpatine's only better because Anakin was hindered vs Drallig. Otherwise, per Gillard, the difference between level 9's comes down the specific circumstances of the fight alone. At this point, per Gillard, Anakin is unbeatable (so is Palpatine). They're even; Anakin was just hindered at this point.
Drallig wasn't prepared for shit. He was fighting clones until Anakin came; it's not like he set up a specific trap for Vader or anything. If anything, the fact that Drallig was fighting clones immediately before Skywalker would've allowed Anakin to start the fight on his terms, which if anything puts Drallig at more of a disadvantage, but I won't press the point.
Well, naturally, he was threatened because he was holding back so much. The novel's ending implies that he was never in any real danger.
Augmentation you've yet to prove. He may be faster than Jedi Dooku, but so is Sith Dooku per Labyrinth of Evil. He may be faster than Obi-Wan but so is Dooku per The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.
And even if he was faster than Dooku, is there any reason to believe that it'd be anything more than a minuscule difference and thus an irrelevant edge?
It seems as if the disparity being depicted between them in TFU II would suggest that Vader could've beaten Galen in TFU before the Dun Moch, especially since he caught Galen off guard with that opening move that nearly broke his defence entirely.
Vader underestimating Starkiller for a second time in a row? lmao
Right. So again, what establishes Vader as being a match for Dooku or more skilled than Dooku as of 3BBY? Three years later, he's still only marginally more skilled than Ben Kenobi, who's a pale shadow of his RotS self. So there's no comparison with Tyranus there.
That's wrong. Gillard says he's a 9 only after joining the dark side; prior to that, he's still an 8, just better than Obi-Wan.
And obviously Obi-Wan is in Dooku's league in that they're both level 8's, but that doesn't mean there can't be a disparity. Dooku shat his pants because he was taken off-guard as much as it was because of how good they were, and again, that's from the RotS novel which doesn't happen anywhere else. Equally outlier sources have Dooku one-shotting Obi-Wan without even looking at him.
Perhaps. Most of the people who duel Vader are actually weaker than Dooku, so it won't be that big of a problem. Recall that the Count successfully lasted against Yoda, who brings to bear greater speed, strength and skill than Vader - all by noticeable margins. I do expect that he'll strain against Vader, but now we have to decide whether that'll be enough to counter the Count's edge in skill.
He seems to be staring at his blade in a brief moment of disbelief before steeling himself, at which point Anakin's blade is halted.
Hmm.. fair. Didn't notice that. Although Anakin's clearly angry then and has good reason to be after the Magnaguards reveal themselves.
I don't see how any of this changes the fact that Dooku could've been overconfident. As a Sith, he rates himself highly and it's entirely plausible that he didn't believe that Anakin could catch up to him so quickly.
The Barriss thing I blame on TCW
And no, I determined that he was still angry on the back of the fact that he had just come off a full-bloodlust assault on Dooku.
That's irrelevant when they're leaping on top of you with a two-handed strike and you're blocking behind your head with one hand.
Perhaps.
Last edited by SunRazer on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 06:40 PM
Just because there are a few discrepancies between the junior novel and the film (as there'd be between any two renditions of the fight) doesn't change the fact that it aligns with the film far moreso than the adult novel. That aside, even if you interpret the RotS novel as a more reliable source, the fact of the matter is that it portrays Anakin better than in anything else - he's faster and stronger than Yoda for gods' sake; that's well beyond Vader also.
Secondly, no, Gillard says that Anakin's a 9 and the best etc. as a Sith Lord. He says that prior to tapping into the dark side (as he does in the final portion of the duel with Dooku), Anakin's an 8, so that only gives us more reason to believe that he was only a match for the Count.
If Legends takes precedence that would mean that there's no specific depiction of the fight that's outright superior in value.
Also, where does Anakin blow through Dooku's guard in the film? It seems to me that Dooku is depicted as the strongest of the three until Anakin gets enraged.
Both the film and junior novel show Dooku being composed and appearing at ease in deflecting all of their strikes; this is supported by SW.com and TCSWE claiming that Dooku proved a formidable opponent to them. The RotS novel sits alone with its Anakin raping Dooku solo and the Count shitting himself at the sight of their Soresu/Djem So.
Secondary sources aren't unanimous in describing Tyranus as outclassed against Yoda at all.
"The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all."
FYI: Palpatine wasn't trying to kill him.
A fair point. But they were written by the same author, so it strains common sense that he would choose to describe it differently. Moreover, Galen did glow when he entered Oneness, so it that respect, it doesn't appear to be at all an identical state.
I dismiss it on the basis that Starkiller survived, and because likeness does not mean sameness.
And my point their wasn't that because Galen didn't know it was going to happen, it wasn't going to happen, but because he didn't know what was going to happen, he couldn't have known was that going to happen.
Because his body wasn't being pushed to its physical limits perhaps? And because Oneness is not handed out like candies?
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 06:47 PM
Well, I rank Drallig pretty highly and still said it was arguable; they're around the same level, at least, and Anakin beat Drallig far more casually than Vader did Galen despite being mentally conflicted as per the RotS junior novel.
Also, doesn't Galen get that shitty accolade as of his fight with Kota? If so, his subsequent performance against Darth Desolous' simalucrum debunks it entirely.
Sure but under what circumstances could Maul or Savage accomplish a similar feat? Maybe if Sheev tied his hands behind his back and hopped on one leg? I think it should be obvious that the Lylek horde were the bigger threat. A handful were a threat to a fortified city, the brothers would be eaten alive.
In which respect, why would Palpatine try harder against a lesser opponent?
I have proven it friend, you just haven't fully accepted the truth yet.
And sure but if we assume for a moment that he is, this is 18BBY Vader, he's got almost 20 years of growth on Dooku's 13 - as well as significantly greater potential - in which he essentially rebuilt himself as a combatant and a Force wielder. I'd say that would afford a notable edge, as would rivalling the speed of Savage blitzing Maul toying Sidious, and no selling Starkiller with an impenetrable defense.
And all this just feeds into the TCW Anakin comparison, who's inferior speed to Dooku often gave a way of circumventing Anakin's strength, with that option eliminated the path to victory for the Count narrows further, while his disadvantages steadily accrue.
Correct.
And he only underestimated him once, lel.
In skill? Well being more skilled than Ben puts him close to Dooku already imo. "Pale shadow of his former self" is a holistic appraisal that refers to the mean of his weaknesses, most of which I'd argue were physical, and the source supports such a reading. Whereas as a duelist he remained "formidable" and the manner in which he decimated Maul only highlights that. Personally, I don't see Dooku outfencing Obi-Wan at all easily.
Besides that he handedly held off a new and improved version of Grievous in Karbin; is a better duelist than Galen Marek who before his prime matched an amped Shaak Ti, one of the Jedi Order's finest swords beings; and has retooled his style to be an unpredictable combination of all forms of combat, and in that respect is arguably more technically adroit than he was as an Anakin, if lacking in as much power, speed and mobility, who was at least as talented as Dooku. Like I said, he's more than capable of contending with a duelist of Dooku's caliber, and especially if Quinlan Vos was able to accomplish such a feat.
Can you clarify on that? Gillard says that Anakin is in Episode III a 9, and that's he gone up 3, 4 levels since Episode II, he doesn't specify when, and goes on to say the key to that is the dark side. Anakin is already heavily flirting with the dark side at the beginning of the movie, and before that. Not that it matters much, as a comparison that accounts for Force augmentation is unfairly stacked against Kenobi from the beginning.
And sure he was, that's the only reason I'm not arguing Kenobi is better. The only outlier here being your understanding.
And Dooku one-shotting him with a kick is because he was faster and stronger (and Kenobi aggression is his weakness). Like I said Force augmentation has to be taken into account here, yet you don't seem to be doing that at all... So is that all the prove there is that Dooku is more skilled than Kenobi? If so I remain unconvinced.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 01:24 PM
I'm not sure what your point is there. Vader is not the sum of the people he's duelled? And Dooku held out against Yoda for a total of 30 seconds, which is great, but it doesn't prove Dooku will be handling his strength, only that it will take Vader a bit longer to beat him.
I would maintain that Vader's advantages are much broader here, strength, speed, stamina and Force abilities, and the Count's weaknesses more clear. Granted, Vader has never fought someone whose actually a better duelist than him bar perhaps Luke, so we don't have much of a measure in that respect, but Dooku has lost to duelists who are worse than him. Moreover I'd argue the disparity in skill is marginal, not profound, and their is a greater precedent for skill being the lesser of the factors in engagements like this. In short Dooku may be a brilliant duelist, but Vader will power through.
Disbelief? Or concern? Like I said, Anakin's just proven exactly how strong he is, on the other hand Anakin's blade appears to be getting awfully close to cleaving off the Count's shoulder. Hence why he resorts to telekinesis, and looks rather worried while doing it.
Another body part that would have been lost to Darth.
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Vader will be angrier.
Perhaps but being overconfident can't really be conflated with taking your opponent lightly. Dooku was overconfident against Yoda, are we therefore to argue he was holding back? Dooku can go all in and think he'll be winning, and still be overconfident for thinking that. And even then he'd quickly realise exactly what he's dealing with, and kick in to second gear.
Well I hate to say Nova but...
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TCW has you by the balls.
And I was referring to his "blood-lusted assault" on Dooku when I made that comment.
On top from... below? Perhaps not, he only gets a few inches on him at best. On the other hand yes, Anakin being on an incline when Dooku pushes him back is absolutely important. Though I guess Dooku gets some props for blocking a strike from a marginal height in the first place.
I don't disagree, that's why I don't dismiss the adult novel. But your argument is that because it's in the film it's superior to that novelisation, yet the part you reference isn't in the film, so that doesn't really work as evidence. It doesn't align with the adult novelisation either, and it doesn't align with TCW. So it's either an outlier in itself, or it's simply incorrect. And I never attempted to use RotS Anakin as proof of anything other than the invalidity of the junior text.
As far as Gillard is concerned, Dooku notes in the novelisation that Anakin's already "half-Sith" and himself states that there are disparities within the tiers, and Gillard describes him as "unbeatable" in general terms, so no, besides this one source I wouldn't really say we have any reason to believe Anakin and Dooku are equals.
The primary novelisation line-edited by Lucas would take precedence yeah.
Here (the third strike):
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He only really appears stronger then he plays Anakin and Kenobi off one another, or otherwise uses leverage. In that respect, coming off only the better fencer imo.
Composed? Sure. At ease? Nah. The script itself notes he was tiring. And Dooku was a formidable opponent in the novelisation as well, folding Anakin in half and KO'ing Yoda would imply that. As would almost winning through Dun Moch before Palpatine's intervention. Nor does being formidable remotely imply he was handling them with ease.
And those are tertiary sources you dolt. I'm referring to the novel, the young adult novel, the comic and the script.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 01:23 PM
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Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
If Vader is a 9 (pre-suit) and he already is the best swordsman in the Jedi Order as an 8, that means he could beat Yoda. But although at the time Sidious was still unbeatable (as per Gillard) he definitely could fight Sidious head on and if he did beat Kenobi he probably would be able to kill Sidious.
This speaks volumes about his force potential.
1. Kenobi during the duel on Mustafar knows that Vader will kill him, unless he ****s up, which he did. That's immensely impressive considering Kenobi was the reigning master of Soresu and a true master of Soresu could not have his/her defenses penetrated except maybe by Juyo. That's insane for Vader, since he was a Form V Djem So specialist.
2. Gillard calls Sidious a master of every form and every weapon, and surpassed Yoda as a duelist. The fact that Vader could match and surpass Sidious demonstrates an insane force potential that amplifies his abilities so much that he goes from an 8 to a 9 that surpasses the greatest duelist in the movies according to Gillard.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Mar 22nd, 2017 12:21 PM
