Id say Plaguies is at least a 9 on par with Sidious otherwise why would Sidious wait until he was drunk/passed out to kill him? why not take him head on unless Sidious wasn't sure if he could take his Master down in a fair fight?
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Gillard wasn't thinking about the EU when he and Lucas came up with this tier system. In the context of the movies, all 9 level fights are results of circumstance and environmental factors, as Gillard himself states. This makes sense, as we find the only 9 v 9 fight in the movies [Yoda vs Sidious], the outcome of the lightsaber part [if we want to consider the junior novelisation, it does not contradict the movie] was Yoda disarming Sidious. This is because Sidious was stuck in a very stymied position, whereas Yoda due to his stature had plenty of room to maneuver with his Form IV.
Again, in the context of the movies only, the only 9's [Yoda, Sidious, Anakin] are not up there purely because they're too fast for people. Gillard let's us know very plainly that Sidious for example wasn't just someone who used to be good and now makes up for it in speed alone. He's a master of all forms and all weapons, he's ambidextrous and never goes a millimeter out of position with his lightsaber. Regardless of whether there is an explanation or not as to how Sidious was able to keep up his lightsaber skills [force technique perhaps?] is irrelevant, since the stated fact is that Sidious is a good lightsaber duelist, not a "Versus series Youtube Sidious who is trash and is just lightning fast".
I don't go on this forum regularly, but I'd like to chip in my two cents. I've posted a very large thread thesis about Plagueis and his lightsaber abilities which is thoroughly sourced. I'm trying my best to place Plagueis to my best opinion and have asked others to assist me and give me their thoughts.
I think it's perhaps people like you who are stuck in this sort of mindset where you think everyone with a different opinion to you is trolling. How about you just be constructively critical instead of claiming why I'm part of the reason why this forum is "dead".
Again, Gillard's own words, in the context of the movies, all 9's fights are about circumstance and environmental factors [and form], since their skill is that high.
What? I am not definitively claiming that Darth Plagueis is "x" tier. I'm discussing where he should be relative to other people in the movies in my opinion. This does not equate to me attempting to play God.
It comes down to whether Sidious' lightsaber abilities changed in anyway between TPM or not. If they did, then Plagueis is not on that level, if they didn't, well then, Plagueis would definitely be a solid 9.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
To your first point. I heard you the first time, I am saying that "in the context of the films" And otherwise for that matter, Saying all nines are equal is moronic, meaning Gillard said something dumb and that I find to be both logically in congruent, as well as contrary to a point I thought he had also made. This was not a attack on you.
As to your second point, Again, this is not a attack on you nor am I claiming you are trying to play god. However I am saying that when people, even if they are not making this argument, attempt to include characters into a ranking system made by Gillard (A system that you mentioned never had the EU in mind) it leads to stupid arguments (None of which you made) like the example I have above.
I have heard people say stuff like "X PT character mentioned in the Gillard tiering system>OT Character never mentioned in the tiering system cause X PT character is a 8 and OT Character can't possibly beat a X tier duelist!!!!!!!"
My point is that, unless we are directly comparing characters on the Gillard Tiering list we should not try to reference it in any way when discussing the capability of duelists in the SW universe.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
1. You could equally call Lucas' statement that Anakin could have beaten the emperor in ROTS as "moronic", that doesn't mean you may substitute your opinion in place of fact. I also wouldn't necessarily say that Gillard meant all 9's were "equal". He basically meant that they are that good that it comes down to factors other than skill. And to be fair, Gillard was only really thinking about 2 or 3 characters when he made the 9th tier. So it's not like there's so many characters that are "equal".
2. While you have a point, it's also true that Gillard's tier system is a definitive ranking of certain duelists in the movies. That is canon fact. If we disregard it completely then we get stupid opinions like the Versus series youtubers who think Palps is a low tier duelist. Or that Vader beats Yoda.
Transferring the abilities of Vader and Luke and putting them up against prequel characters is difficult ... although the EU likes to suggest that the OT duels were just as intense as the PT, I feel like Lucas really did intend the PT to the prime of dueling ... it all comes down to, imo, how good WAS Vader? Because Luke simply scales off of Vader really.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
1. Honestly, From what iv'e heard from knightfall Anakin, the Idea of him>Palps might not be far fetched considering what he did to Dooku. Also I'm not substituting my opinion for fact, I will accept that, in the context of the films, all nines are close from a in universe prospective, that doesn't mean I have to like it or can't think its dumb.
2. I never asked you to disregard anything, if you read carefully you would have read this minor point....
"unless we are directly comparing characters on the Gillard Tiering list we should not try to reference it in any way when discussing the capability of duelists in the SW universe."
Also if you need Gillards tiering list to prove Sidious is ludicrously effective with a lightsaber.....You honestly might need to go back and learn more on sidious. Trust me, as someone who almost never referenced that tiering system, its not hard......
How exactly is gauging Vader's skill as a duelist more difficult then gauging the skill of anyone else in all of SW? (Bar people on Gillard's tier list)
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
1. Lucas directly confirms that knightfall Anakin > the emperor. Anyway, that's cool, just as long as you recognise the fact in the canon.
2. I'm more than aware that there are plenty of arguments for Sidious. But it's far simpler to take the overall result from the fact established by Lucas/Gillard, which is that Sidious is ludicrously good, since he's a 9, and only Yoda and Anakin are a match for him in lightsabers.
The tier system is always a fact? It's never not a fact.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Dec 14th, 2017 06:16 PM
