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Orion (grounded) vs Wolverine/Sabertooth/Spiderman
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StiltmanFTW
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Wait, it's leo's birthday? And off-topic thread doesn't remember? Shame!

Happy Birthday, leo


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Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:28 PM
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Senor Cage
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
He's been grounded for this fight.


It just states that it's physical, not that he can't fly. If it's physically possible, then it should be allowed.

Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:38 PM
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darthgoober
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
It just states that it's physical, not that he can't fly. If it's physically possible, then it should be allowed.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Orion is grounded and have nothing but his physical stats versus these three. This is adamantium weapon X Creed.

No bfr.


It even says it in the thread title...


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Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:39 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
I forgot what issue, but Orion has flown without his harness.


Return of the New Gods doesn't count.


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Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:40 PM
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Senor Cage
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Return of the New Gods doesn't count.


It was before, but why doesn't it count?

Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:49 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthgoober
It even says it in the thread title...


Dang, I'm slipping.

Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:49 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
It was before, but why doesn't it count?


Written without Kirby input when Kirby was alive, costume and power changes, and all of it never seen before or since.

You didn't see restored Orion wearing that stupid outfit and flying around without the harness in The Great Darkness Saga.


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What CDTM believes;

Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.

Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:53 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
Dang, I'm slipping.


Your DC love makes you blind, my friend.


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Old Post Apr 26th, 2017 11:55 PM
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Anyways, we should hire Carver to jump out of Leo's birthday cake.

Old Post Apr 27th, 2017 12:34 AM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Zack M
Anyways, we should hire Carver to jump out of Leo's birthday cake.


(please log in to view the image)

I'm all for that. I shall make leo the vicepresident of carver fan club (fuck you, DarkSaint ), this is what he deserves.


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Old Post Apr 27th, 2017 12:44 AM
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Senor Cage
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laughing out loud

Old Post Apr 27th, 2017 01:26 AM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
Well, Wolverine has completely vanished in a featureless environment before:

(please log in to view the image)

Not surprising, since he knows how to stand in plain sight without being seen:

(please log in to view the image)


So, he may or may not be using a trick that may or may not work on Orion, in the first scan. Regardless, the team isn't facing normal people.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
Not like Wolverine's never outfought an immortal supernatural being. God of Battle, meet Angel of Death:

http://imgur.com/8StKfpW
http://imgur.com/Nhcokdh
http://imgur.com/MduuVgS
http://imgur.com/t32kMmE
http://imgur.com/3FKAaDm
http://imgur.com/UQFbsS7
http://imgur.com/zQL43bO

It's not an isolated incident either, he's taken him down many times in the past:

(please log in to view the image)


Not impressed, for what you're using it for. He doesn't even say anything about having a supernatural talent for combat like Orion's at least implied. All I'm seeing is he's very old, and has been beaten before. What feats does he have other than fighting Wolverine? He doesn't seem like anything beyond low level superhuman in stats in the scans you're showing. Also, why is he making a huge deal over Wolverine's soul?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
Right, but there's doing something faster than an untrained girl can see, and there's moving too fast for full grown Mafia members to see:

http://imgur.com/sOii0cj

Or soldiers specifically trained to take on Meta humans:

http://imgur.com/zqqXrmD
http://imgur.com/j9zBVYN

So you see why that aspect doesn't blow me away.


So, is there anything about their training that increases their TIME PERCEPTION? Otherwise, you bringing this up to say it "doesn't blow me away" is a circular argument. Unless you can prove their time perception was increased, there's not really a difference since they're still normal humans.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
How many years? Millenia:

(please log in to view the image)

How much knowledge? Enough that Wolverine, who's faced everyone from Shang Chi and Iron Fist, to Mandarin, Ogun, Stick and Gamora, hasn't faced a foe possessing such skill before or since:

(please log in to view the image)


So, skill from a lot of experience?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
Again, no context for this statement. He started winning the fight, but was it stated or shown to be skill? If the purpose of the fight was to overcome his pacifism, couldn't it have been his ferocity and power that started to overwhelm her?

Except the timelines I've seen stated that the residents of Apokolips and New Genesis only became Gods 30,000 years ago, and one timeline put the birth of Darkseid at 24,000 years ago: http://fastbak.tripod.com/ngchrono.htm

Considering Angels predate humans, and humans in Marvel were created about 200,000 years ago, I'm going to say Azrael's older than that.


The timeline looks correct from what I recall of the timeline in NEW GODS SECRET FILES(or maybe it was JACK KIRBY'S FOURTH WORLD for SECRET FILES, either way, I think published in 1997), but going by the named comics it seems that page was made/last updated around the time of the ORION series. Morrison very well may have changed the timeline, I haven't read SEVEN SOLDIERS yet.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
That wasn't the point, I'm not arguing that Wolverine by himself is a match for Orion. My point was that even if Orion has incredible skill "on paper" as a couple of posters have put it, Wolverine's matched skill with people who have comparable "on paper" skill and experience.

I'm not saying that since he beat Azrael, he'll beat Orion, just that Orion's godhood and centuries of experience don't put him out of Wolverine's league, skillwise.


Wait, you brought this up.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
According to Delta, he only took the edge once he'd become his old self. And was Valkyrie his physical equal?


So far, I've only seen that Azrael is superficially similar to Orion in that regard. I'm not seeing anything other than his skill is from being around a really long time. And he doesn't seem to be more than comparable to Wolverine in stats. I'm only going on what you've shown. If he is only comparable to Wolverine in stats, do you think he'd do as well if Azrael had near Superman level stats?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
Wolverine vs Thor, Wolverine vs Hercules in Contest of Champions II, vs Ragnarok, vs Count Nefaria, vs Kierrok and the N'Garai, vs The Furies in Astonishing X-Men, Death Wolverine vs Hulk, vs Hulk in Wolverine & Hulk miniseries, vs Titannus in Marvel Team Up v3, vs World War Hulk.


Not familiar with all of them, but what I am, not really impressed. And wasn't Death Wolverine amped by tech?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
Thanks, I checked them out. At the point at which Orion starts to take the upper hand, it's described thus:

"The fury, the frenzy, the untrammeled violence that is the seething heart of Orion... is loosed upon a Valkyra who seems suddenly sunken and diminished by the force of it." So, what I said earlier, which makes sense, since if he was the more skilled, Orion would be the greatest martial artist in the universe, not Valkyra.



Entirely his equal? Maybe not. Equal in specific aspects? He absolutely has. Sure, I can agree to disagree.


Like I said earlier, not seeing anything other than superficial similarities to what I showed(so reaching to say "equal in specific aspects"), and his stats are much closer to Street than Superman.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 01:33 PM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ize19
First off, happy birthday Leo! This is one scenario that could go down, although I don't think it'd be as easy as you're suggesting. After all, look how difficult of a time Ragnarok had just dislodging Wolverine, let alone bfr'ing him:

(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)

Factoring in that lightning is extra effective against Wolverine, Orion won't be flying, and Spider-man will be able to contribute more than just rescuing wayward teammates, plus Sabretooth is stronger, faster, and more durable than Wolverine, means this strategy isn't going to be as easy to implement as you might think.



Like I said to Leo above, I agree that it's a probable scenario. It's not the only one however, and both Wolverine and Sabertooth have proven quite capable of using their agility in combat. On top of that, with Spider-Man there to keep them in the field of combat, plus providing a mobile, long range distraction for Orion, isolating any of these fighters will be no small task.


So, has Ragnarok actually done anything worthwhile, or are you going off he's literally a clone of Thor? 'Cuz I'm not impressed.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 01:38 PM
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Dareangel
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he is grounded? then they fight in his room? is there enough space in his room for that fight?

Old Post May 5th, 2017 01:42 PM
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Delta1938
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Well, if you go all the way back to the Kirby era, almost all gods had feats that look like super speed

Take Mr. Miracle: One moment he's caught in a trap, with an ax coming at him. The next he's across the room as the axe comes down. Essentially "teleports" on panel.

Looks like super speed to me.

As for Orion, he's reacted to and caught Lightray, who's well established as multiples of light speed.


Yeah, several times Scott had examples that seemed superhuman in speed. Only reason to question was the whole "escape artist master" thing. But he clearly had at least some degree of super speed in the ORION example posted earlier. Orion also had examples that seemed at least somewhat superhuman in speed(agility as well) during Kirby.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Return of the New Gods doesn't count.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Written without Kirby input when Kirby was alive, costume and power changes, and all of it never seen before or since.

You didn't see restored Orion wearing that stupid outfit and flying around without the harness in The Great Darkness Saga.


Kirby not having input doesn't actually mean anything, unless he owned them when he was alive. The costume changes actually first appeared in 1ST ISSUE SPECIAL #13. Orion's costume change also appears in ADVENTURE COMICS #459-#460, which as far as I can tell, was meant to finish the sotryline in RETURN OF THE NEW GODS(it certainly came after). The costume change was also in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #183-#184, which was published after the ADVENTURE COMICS storyline and directly references it. And the JLofA issues were referenced Post-CRISIS in I think JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 01:43 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Delta1938
So, has Ragnarok actually done anything worthwhile, or are you going off he's literally a clone of Thor? 'Cuz I'm not impressed.


He made a pretty cool card in Marvel Puzzle Quest?

If you could ever upgrade him, like all three+ cards.


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What CDTM believes;

Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.

Old Post May 5th, 2017 01:59 PM
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Ize19
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quote:
originally posted by Delta1938
Not impressed, for what you're using it for. He doesn't even say anything about having a supernatural talent for combat like Orion's at least implied. All I'm seeing is he's very old, and has been beaten before. What feats does he have other than fighting Wolverine? He doesn't seem like anything beyond low level superhuman in stats in the scans you're showing. Also, why is he making a huge deal over Wolverine's soul?

quote:

So, skill from a lot of experience?

quote:

Wait, you brought this up.

So far, I've only seen that Azrael is superficially similar to Orion in that regard. I'm not seeing anything other than his skill is from being around a really long time. And he doesn't seem to be more than comparable to Wolverine in stats. I'm only going on what you've shown. If he is only comparable to Wolverine in stats, do you think he'd do as well if Azrael had near Superman level stats?


Okay, grouping these quotes together so I can answer them all at once. First of all, no he does not have any feats, and while he is at least Wolverine's equal physically, judging by Dr. Strange's testimony (and you have to admit, he's a hell of an expert witness) nothing suggests he is anywhere near Orion's stats, nor did I ever claim he was.

He doesn't say anything about having a supernatural talent, but since he was created by God to be the Angel of Death, and has had millenia of killing superhumans who would cheat death, I'd say that qualifies. And again, he's not just skilled, according to Dr. Strange, he is the most skilled opponent Wolverine has ever faced. No small praise.

You're misconstruing my point there. The Valkyra fight was being used to demonstrate Orion's skill, so her physical ability in comparison to him is relevant. Azrael only needs to match or exceed Wolverine in physical ability in order for their match to be a relevant example of Wolverine's skill, and according to Dr. Strange, he does. If I thought or claimed Azrael was a match for Orion, it would have been my first post in this thread.

quote:

So, is there anything about their training that increases their TIME PERCEPTION? Otherwise, you bringing this up to say it "doesn't blow me away" is a circular argument. Unless you can prove their time perception was increased, there's not really a difference since they're still normal humans.


Lol, so mafia gunmen looking directly at a target they're surrounding, and soldiers that are assaulted directly by their opponent, being unable to see him move, are just as impressive as a little girl being unable to quite see what happened across the room? And of course they've increased their time perception, compared to a little girl with zero combat experience.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950412/

"The second finding is that slow-time perception and action can be learned unconsciously, through experience and training... The third finding is that at least to some degree, some trained individuals can actively turn on slow-time perception and processing. This is part of the process of “pumping up” used by skilled athletes preparing for a difficult performance."

Even athletes can train to improve their slow-time perception, let alone trained soldiers/gunmen.

quote:

Not familiar with all of them, but what I am, not really impressed. And wasn't Death Wolverine amped by tech?


He had tech when he took on the X-Men, but all he used against Hulk was a sword and his claws.

quote:

Like I said earlier, not seeing anything other than superficial similarities to what I showed(so reaching to say "equal in specific aspects"), and his stats are much closer to Street than Superman.


I wasn't referring just to Azrael there. Azrael is at least his equal in experience, and his on-paper equal in skill, Hulk is at least his equal in strength, Sentry is far more than his equal in speed. Yes, Orion's combination of abilities makes him incredibly formidable, and more than a match for Wolverine alone, but he isn't alone, and this team has what it takes to bring him down.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 08:46 PM
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carver9
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Hulk is stronger than Orion.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 08:49 PM
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Ize19
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk is stronger than Orion.


Sure, I have no problem with that.


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 08:55 PM
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Delta1938
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Strange, it won't let me properly quote you. erm

quote:
Okay, grouping these quotes together so I can answer them all at once. First of all, no he does not have any feats, and while he is at least Wolverine's equal physically, judging by Dr. Strange's testimony (and you have to admit, he's a hell of an expert witness) nothing suggests he is anywhere near Orion's stats, nor did I ever claim he was. He doesn't say anything about having a supernatural talent, but since he was created by God to be the Angel of Death, and has had millenia of killing superhumans who would cheat death, I'd say that qualifies. And again, he's not just skilled, according to Dr. Strange, he is the most skilled opponent Wolverine has ever faced. No small praise. You're misconstruing my point there. The Valkyra fight was being used to demonstrate Orion's skill, so her physical ability in comparison to him is relevant. Azrael only needs to match or exceed Wolverine in physical ability in order for their match to be a relevant example of Wolverine's skill, and according to Dr. Strange, he does. If I thought or claimed Azrael was a match for Orion, it would have been my first post in this thread.


So he superficially matches Orion in the "supernatural talent" and is at best on par with Wolverine in stats.

That's pretty much all Valkyra has. She only has few other appearances that I can tell, and does basically nothing in them. The fight is at least a showing for her durability. Much of her skill is lip service(though the description of the fight and what Vykin's statements together are a bit more than just that). I do use this, but I'm more going on other stuff Orion's shown in addition to this than Zack seems to be. Like the fight with Darkseid, considering Darkseid's physically superior to Orion, and seems to be pretty skilled himself.

quote:
Lol, so mafia gunmen looking directly at a target they're surrounding, and soldiers that are assaulted directly by their opponent, being unable to see him move, are just as impressive as a little girl being unable to quite see what happened across the room? And of course they've increased their time perception, compared to a little girl with zero combat experience.


Let's assume all examples are speed(instead of Wolverine using a "ninja trick"). If all people have normal time perceptions, and require roughly the same amount of speed for someone to move faster than they can see, then yeah, it's not nearly as impressive as you're trying to argue, when we're talking about moving too fast for a normal human to see.

quote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950412/ "The second finding is that slow-time perception and action can be learned unconsciously, through experience and training... The third finding is that at least to some degree, some trained individuals can actively turn on slow-time perception and processing. This is part of the process of “pumping up” used by skilled athletes preparing for a difficult performance." Even athletes can train to improve their slow-time perception, let alone trained soldiers/gunmen.


Actually, I'm already familiar with this, and have read on the subject before. You seem to be misinterpreting your source, or didn't read all of it. I suggest you reread it. Especially the last paragraph, where it states, "This evidence supports the suggestion by Arstila that humans possess a specialized hormonal or neurophysiological mechanism for high-speed cognition; and that this is activated inadvertently by real fear of imminent violent death in accidents, emergencies, and certain extreme sports; and may on some occasions be activated intentionally by individuals who have trained themselves to do so."

Basically, scientists are trying to figure out why it does this. In fact, that part of the article also states, "This raises three questions. Firstly, why is this mechanism only turned on occasionally? Presumably, it has high metabolic costs or side effects which reduce biological fitness if it is activated continually. Secondly, if some individuals have learned to activate slow-time perception, processing and action, what is the mechanism?"

It asks why it doesn't happen every time, and IF(my emphasis) some have learned to do it, how do they do it. Like I said before, scientists are still trying to figure out what actually is happening and how it works. If it works the way you think it does, nearly if not everybody in law enforcement and the military who has been in a shoot out will have experienced this most if not every time. But, that's not the case. Not at all. It's happened to people untrained in accidents.

Now, do the comics you're using actually say they've been trained to increase their time perceptions, or are you going on an article about training MIGHT give the ability?

quote:
He had tech when he took on the X-Men, but all he used against Hulk was a sword and his claws.


So he wasn't amped(whether genetic manipulation or cyborg stuff) like Apocalypse has done before with other Horsemen?

quote:
I wasn't referring just to Azrael there. Azrael is at least his equal in experience, and his on-paper equal in skill, Hulk is at least his equal in strength, Sentry is far more than his equal in speed. Yes, Orion's combination of abilities makes him incredibly formidable, and more than a match for Wolverine alone, but he isn't alone, and this team has what it takes to bring him down.


No they don't. big grin


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Old Post May 5th, 2017 10:03 PM
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Home » Comic Book Forums » Comic Book 'Versus' Forum » Orion (grounded) vs Wolverine/Sabertooth/Spiderman

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