Right, the posters point being a flop because its irrelevant. And doesn't disprove or undermine any of my arguments.
Yeah let's move on.
Uhuh, you still haven't explained how Luke losing faith in the Jedi undermines his character.
Having a hero utterly fail as a denouement to his story arc is unfufiling. Having a hero fail in the prelude to a subsequent story arc is not, its called generating conflict that drives plot i.e. good storytelling.
What is unfulfilling is having a hero never stop winning, and creates bland plots that revolve around the next monster of the week, like intergalatic space invaders or something.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Apr 16th, 2017 at 12:18 AM
You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.
Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem.
Mind explaining how the heroes "never stopped winning" before the st. Did the prequel trilogy not happen? What about esb?
And no, resetting the whole fcking lore rather than actually being creative and creating something new isn't good story telling, its lazy story telling. And if you're going to fundementally change the lore you're redoing, then you're also fundementally changing the original lore.
The problem isn't that disney went for a new direction. The problem is disney went for a new direction trying to tell the exact same story.
The magnitude of the problem won't be known for some time, since it'll depend on whether Luke succeeds in rebuilding the Jedi Order, though I expect him to die in the process (ie. die during the ST). So I'm kind of in agreement with Ares here.
Certainly the RotJ ending is hugely compromised by the ST in my opinion. The thing is the RotS ending led directly into the setting of ANH despite the huge time gap. The RotJ ending and the TFA setting couldn't be further apart. It's like there should've been another trilogy in between.
Tends to happen when you respond to my points with non-answers.
For example you still haven't explained how Luke's character has been "undone". That suggests he's back where he started, yet evidently he's nothing like the farmboy we found on Tatooine. He has experienced and retained growth obviously, he just hasn't necessarily remained on the same path.
The fact that he has changed dramatically in character making him interesting. Already miles more so than he ever was in Legends.
Where did I say Luke was "undone"? If so, I misspoke. I said Han's character growth was undone and Luke's accomplishments have been undone (hence me calling him a failure).
@Beni - Luke changes dramatically in Legends as well by falling to the dark side, Mara's death, etc. Though I agree he remains fairly static as a character from the NJO series onwards.
Also, before we get into claims about his shift in character, we actually have to see The Last Jedi. So far, all we know is that he's failed in rebuilding the Jedi Order and lives in exile. A several-second sequence of him turning and lowering his hood in TFA is not enough to judge the shift in his character, lmfao. At best we can argue that it sets up the potential for a dramatic character shift, but nothing more.
Luke doesn't become a Yoda clone in Legends, except maybe at the end of DNT up to mid-LotF. He certainly has far more emotional character than Yoda, even in Legends.
Apr 16th, 2017 12:08 AM
