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What type of Program is Neo?
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The Serpent
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quote:
Swedenborg said:
What this boils down to, I guess, is making several time-lines possible (but in a simulated world) EVEN if the simulated world is deterministic.

The time-lines are sought in a deterministic fashion though... Those making the decisions (or the computers) would still be determined by the world THEY live in.


I agree with you completely.

Ultimately the thing which controls you is the entity that created the rules which govern your behavior. (i.e. whatever created the laws of physics controls your actions … but not necessarily your perceptions).

quote:
However, that is not very relevant to the plot of a movie. At some point, the creator(s) have a goal with the simulations, and they strive for it. I think this motivaton is what matters most (it's not particularly interesting that this goal was put in their mind by some deterministic series of events - that's just some premises we have to accept as a background story to the movie.). The line should be drawn somewhere.


Once again I am in complete agreement, and the same point you make is stressed AGAIN and AGAIN in the films. There is much talk of purpose, and the why of things. At one point Neo laments that he just wished he knew what he was suppose to do – he wishes he better understood his purpose.

Purpose is what truly gives meaning to existence.

Good posts my friend, very insightful.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 02:00 PM
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neo-generate
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Warning What do you believe?

] raver

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 02:59 PM
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neo-generate
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But serpent, as u said, that the one who controls created the rules. But that is in a world bound by rules. If for instance that world was know to be re-formable (lost for a better word) then the rules do not apply to those within. As Morpheus said "Some rules can be bent...others can be broken"


__________________
There is no peace, there is Anger;
There is no fear, there is Power.
There is no death, there is immortality;
There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.

With Great Power, comes Great Responsibilty.

The Secret to success is within you.
Govern your anger.
Channel your strength.
Take control.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 03:04 PM
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neo-generate
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[SPOILER - highlight to read]: just testing this thing sorry


__________________
There is no peace, there is Anger;
There is no fear, there is Power.
There is no death, there is immortality;
There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.

With Great Power, comes Great Responsibilty.

The Secret to success is within you.
Govern your anger.
Channel your strength.
Take control.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 03:13 PM
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The Serpent
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quote:
Neo-generate said:
But serpent, as u said, that the one who controls created the rules. But that is in a world bound by rules. If for instance that world was know to be re-formable (lost for a better word) then the rules do not apply to those within.


I am not sure how or what it would mean to say that the Universe (any Universe) is not bound by any rules (like the laws of physics for example)?

Furthermore, whether or not those laws can be reformulated (or changed over time) is irrelevant as it is the entity which is reformulating the laws that still has ultimate control over anything governed by those same laws.

quote:
As Morpheus said "Some rules can be bent...others can be broken"


Yes, but in terms of Reality Morpheous is speaking metaphorically. Some rules (or laws of physics if you prefer) can appear to be bent or broken, but in reality the rules are inviolate.

It’s kind of like Clarke’s 3rd law:

Any sufficiently advanced technology (i.e. perception/information) is indistinguishable from magic.

All technology (all information/all energy) is based on rules (originates from).

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:01 PM
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trav6612
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But the question about the rules being broken, is there a higher law which ensures that a person can not leave a certain limit. For example, We live on an island inside of a fence. I break through the fence, thereby allowing myself access to the rest of the island, but I cannot leave the island?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:03 PM
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The Serpent
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The fenced in area of your island represents one matrix (one level of reality), the island as a whole represents another larger level, and then the sea in which the island sits represents still another level beyond that.

You can imagine the Omniverse (set of all universes) as a Russian nesting doll. Each doll within a doll represents a single universe like ours (a level of the over-all fractal or Matrix). The hypothetical outer doll is therefore referred to as the Omniverse. (our “universe” exist within the larger Omniverse)

Higher levels of the Matrix are simply more elaborate versions of their predecessors. In other words as you move backwards (in time) the universes get simpler and simpler (they are based on simpler rule sets), and as you go forward they are more elaborate and complex based on more complex rule systems. This is referred to as a Godelian hierarchy as it is based on the mathematics of Kurt Godel and his Incompleteness theorem.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:13 PM
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The Serpent
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btw -- obeying the rules on one level may appear as "breaking the rules" on another. Assuming you are occupying one level and manifesting on another.

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:15 PM
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trav6612
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I've got a question for you all? The architect while talking to Neo said that if Neo didn't diseminate his code in the source, it would destroy the matrix. What is so important about Neo putting his code into the source?


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Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 05:29 PM
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film nut
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Has anyone noticed that in the teaser trailer for matrix 2 and 3, a voice says 'you are ready to die for this man?' and trinity replies'youd better bel;ieve it'. does this not suggest to you that neo could possibly get captured in revolutions. i don't recall hearing this line in reloaded. let me hear your thoughts!

Old Post Jun 6th, 2003 06:48 PM
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neo-generate
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to serpant: i am surprised by two things; 1. there is another out there who delves further and further into the realms of thought and mind. 2. u r very literate, and the funny thing being...i can understand u! but seriously, u have definately put things into perspective. i was still thinking at the 'inside the fence' level and could not comprehend the existence of still further levels of "control". it is very interesting to hear others p.o.v. as it helps in each of our own understanding. although what u have said has brought a question to mind: through all those levels, surely there must be a top level, or a supreme plane of control, to which the one who controls THAT, controls all. so my question is this - if there are these levels, how many are there AND who is the master control? [SPOILER - highlight to read]: is it God? creator and watcher...?


__________________
There is no peace, there is Anger;
There is no fear, there is Power.
There is no death, there is immortality;
There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.

With Great Power, comes Great Responsibilty.

The Secret to success is within you.
Govern your anger.
Channel your strength.
Take control.

Old Post Jun 9th, 2003 02:28 PM
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The Serpent
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Location: United States

quote:
neo-generate said:
... i was still thinking at the 'inside the fence' level and could not comprehend the existence of still further levels of "control". it is very interesting to hear others p.o.v. as it helps in each of our own understanding. although what u have said has brought a question to mind: through all those levels, surely there must be a top level, or a supreme plane of control, to which the one who controls THAT, controls all. so my question is this - if there are these levels, how many are there AND who is the master control?


Yes … quite right. If you go down the rabbit hole deep enough you would finally reach the Ultimate level of control – the Source (the bottom of the Matrix).

There you would find that Solipsism was True, and You were the Architect.

Of course, you would have to be insane to want to sacrifice Destiny and Individuality for Free Will and Solipsism, which is probably why you decided against it in the first place.

Old Post Jun 9th, 2003 05:18 PM
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Ushgarak
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This is again being dragged into an area in whuich the thrad does not belong. I will remind again all posters that taking these issues into higher philisophical areas is something that belongs in its OWN thread, now provided.


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Old Post Jun 9th, 2003 05:22 PM
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neo-generate
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"oh how the mighty have fallen" i think ushgarak is right, unfortunately. but the path has been strayed from. to serpant, i enjoy thes philosophical discussions, and i would like to understand what a Solipsism is, so if u want we can do 1 of 2 things; create another thread (and u can inform me through this one) or we can continue this through email. but apart from that, i think neo is not a program as such. rather that he is a command inside the matrix that has the ability to do whatever he wants.


__________________
There is no peace, there is Anger;
There is no fear, there is Power.
There is no death, there is immortality;
There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side.

With Great Power, comes Great Responsibilty.

The Secret to success is within you.
Govern your anger.
Channel your strength.
Take control.

Old Post Jun 10th, 2003 08:36 AM
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Ushgarak
Paladin

Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin

(You can discuss what the Matrix has to say about Solipsism and so forth in the new philisophical area you may note at the top of the main Matrix area)


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 10th, 2003 11:38 AM
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