So admitting that the Universe and life within it is so improbable there are much better conceptions of the universe than the ceramic Creator model of the universe as indicated in the Bible. Universe as "drama" or "organism" is much more interesting because it fits better with new information. We were no more "created" than a plant is "created" when a seed is planted into the soil and watered. To say we are "grown" or "developed" makes more sense.
The unwarranted jump that religious fundamentalists make is saying, "Oh, well the Universe is just so well ordered and amazing, it must be the Bible and Jesus because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy!" Well, people within all other religions (and even no religion) around the world feel warm and fuzzy too, so that is proof that there is something deeper at work.
Hundreds of billions of galaxies, 100 billion (likely more) stars in the Milky way, and likely innumerable planets as well. I have a really shit understanding of light years and the mathematical aspects of it, but it just seems like the only thing separating us from another civilization is the distance between our Solar system and the nearest star. I think that there is something out there but we'll likely never find them in this millennia unless we develop some sort of technology for interstellar travel. Babysteps!
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
I disagree. I believe that the conditions of the Earth and life existing on Earth is a strong form of the cosmological argument. Based on the facts that I have presented at the outset of this thread, and in subsequent posts throughout it, I think that it is crystal clear that Earth has ALL of the earmarks of PROVIDENCE, WISDOM, INTELLIGENCE, and DESIGN. There would be NO life on Earth were all of the indispensable parameters not PRECISELY SET during creation.
I mean you are on a MASSIVE, COMPLEX WORLD SYSTEM that HANGS ON NOTHING IN SPACE, all the while rotating at a velocity of 1,000 miles per hour, and traveling through space at 66,000 miles per hour. God's WISDOM, INTELLIGENCE, POWER, PHYSICS, and MATHEMATICS are SO INFINITE and SUBLIME that WE DON'T EVEN FEEL LIKE WERE MOVING AT ALL. There is no VEHICLE ON EARTH THAT CAN ROTATE AND REVOLVE AT THOSE SPEEDS WITHOUT US FEELING EVERY NUANCE OF MOTION. In addition, earth is revolving around an IMMENSE almost perfect sphere of hot plasma so LARGE that a MILLION EARTHS could fit inside of it, with a core that is 14 MILLION DEGREES CELSIUS (or 400 TRILLION, TRILLION WATTS), AT JUST THE PRECISE DISTANCE from earth to SUPPORT AND TO SUSTAIN ALL COMPLEX, BIODIVERSE LIFE (and that¡¯s just ONE star¡ªand there are MULTIPLIED TRILLIONS TIMES MULTIPLIED TRILLIONS TIMES MULTIPLIED TRILLIONS or so many that they CANNOT BE COUNTED, many of which are IMMENSELY LARGER than this sun by numerous orders of magnitude (excuse the caps).
Creation (as far as a believer is concerned) is not just a theory¡ªit is a fact. Now, I cannot empirically prove that God created anything. But, based on the reliable, strict, dependable laws and principles that exist (and which govern reality so precisely), I can intelligently claim that God is the most plausible explanation. Again, the existence of benevolent laws and principles such as the law of physics, mathematics, logic, cause and effect, chemistry, reason etc.¡ªand the fact that they govern time, space, and matter and everything within their construct so decently, and orderly suggest (to me) that their existence is not random (nor can they be).
For example, Earth¡¯s solar system is fine-tuned to support life. The Bible reveals no other solar system, place, or world/planet in the universe that God created to be inhabited¡ªexcept Earth. It¡¯s no wonder that it supports life so proficiently (because it is supposed to). I mean just consider just some of the many requirements (which are absolutely necessary for life to exist on Earth, and/or for Earth to be inhabitable) that actually conveniently exist on, or in connection with Earth. The sun, the atmosphere around Earth, the abundance of water that covers Earth, natural crops/food and vegetation that abound throughout earth, the law of seedtime and harvest (or agricultural laws), gravity etc. I mean this short list of extraordinary conveniences point to the Creator. Furthermore, there are numerous anthropic constants (look up Anthropic Principle) that demonstrate that the universe is fine-tuned for life. No other world/planet has these values. Here are fifteen of these life-sustaining constants:
I'll quote these 15 constants from a link
And I quote,
¡¡
"Anthropic Constant 1: Oxygen Level
On earth, oxygen comprises 21 percent of the atmosphere. That precise figure is an Anthropic Constant that makes life on earth possible. If oxygen were 25% fires would erupt spontaneously, if it were 15%, human beings would suffocate.
If the atmosphere were less transparent, not enough solar radiation would reach the earth¡¯s surface. If it were more transparent we would be bombarded with far roo much solar radiation down here. (In addition to atmospheric transparency, the atmospheric composition of precise levels of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and ozone are in themselves Anthropic constants).
Anthropic Constant 3: Moon-Earth Gravitational Interaction
If the interaction were greater than it currently is, tidal effects on the oceans, atmosphere, and rotational period would be too severe. If it were less, orbital changes would cause climatic instabilities. In either event, life on earth would be impossible.
Anthropic Constant 4: Carbon Dioxide level
If the CO2 level were higher than it is now, a runaway greenhouse effect would develop (we¡¯d all burn up). If the level were lower than it is now, plants would not be able to maintain efficient photosynthesis (we¡¯d all suffocate).
Anthropic Constant 5: Gravity
If the gravitational force were altered by
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent, our sun would not exist, and, therefore neither would we. Talk about precision.
Anthropic Constant 6: Centrifugal Force
If the centrifugal force of planetary movements did not precisely balance the gravitational forces, nothing could be held in orbit around the sun.
Anthropic Constant 7: Rate Of Expansion
If the universe had expanded at a rate one millionth more slowly than it did, expansion would have stopped and the universe would have collapsed on itself before any stars had formed. If it had expanded faster, then no galaxies would have formed.
Anthropic Constant 8: Speed Of Light
Any of the laws of physics can be described as a function of the velocity of light (now defined to be 299,792,458 meters per second). Even a slight variation in the speed of light would alter the other constants and preclude the possibility of life on earth.
Anthropic Constant 9: Water Vapor Levels.If water vapor levels in the atmosphere were greater than they are now, a runaway greenhouse effect would cause temperatures to rise too high for human life. If they were less, an insufficient greenhouse effect would make the earth to cold to support human life.
Anthropic Constant 10: Jupiter.
If Jupiter were not in it¡¯s current orbit, the earth would be bombarded with space material. Jupiter¡¯s gravitational field acts as a cosmic vacuum cleaner, attracting asteroids and comets that might otherwise strike earth.
Anthropic Constant 11: The Earth¡¯s Crust.
If the thickness of the earth¡¯s crust were greater, too much oxygen would be transferred to the crust to support life. If it were thinner, volcanic and tectonic activity would make life impossible.
Anthropic Constant 12: The Earth¡¯s Rotation.
If the rotation of the earth took longer than 24 hours, temperature differences would be too great between night and day. If the rotation period were shorter, atmospheric wind velocities would be to great.
Anthropic Constant 13: Axis Tilt.
The 23-degree axis tilt of the earth is just right. If the tilt were altered slightly, surface temperatures would be too extreme on earth.
Anthropic Constant 14: Atmospheric Discharge.
If the atmospheric discharge (lightning) rate were greater, there would be too much fire destruction; if it were less there would be little nitrogen fixings in the soil.
Anthropic Constant 15: Seismic Activity.
If there were more seismic activity, much more life would be lost; if there were less, nutrients on the ocean floors and in river runoff would not be cycled back to the continents through tectonic uplift. (yes, even earthquakes are necessary to sustain life as we know it)."
If there are 10^22planets in the universe (think about that large number for a minute), the chance that any one planet would have constants that make life on it possible is 10138. There are only approximately 10^70 atoms in the universe. In other words, zero chance. These are the facts.
¡¡
The above constants are just 15 of 122 constants that are necessary for life to exist. There is no reason in an alleged, random, chance process universe for those constants to exist. They only need to exist in order to support life (or for life to exist)¡ªfor no other reason.¡±
If the universe is the effect of a random, chance expansion (or explosion), there would be no order in the universe, and definitely no constants that make life possible. So, the only other conclusion is creation.
Consider this: the universe does not have to exist at all. The fact that it does in an exceedingly complex, orderly, law-obeying, anthropic constant manner is not a coincidence. Just from a human standpoint we know that complexity comes from something (or someone) complex. Order comes from something (or someone) orderly. Laws come from something (or someone) who makes laws. Constants come from something (or someone) who is constant.
But the universe, Earth, life etc. are EXCEEDINGLY more complex than ANYTHING made by humans. Yet atheistic scientists want us to believe that these things don't require the same--but on a HIGHER LEVEL?
No, the Lord Jesus is a Person. He is fully God, and fully Man/Human. The Bible is about Him from Genesis through Revelation. The four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) focus on His early life, ministry, service, love, compassion, and goodness.
I don't know about that but, the Bible (God's Book) talks about the fruit of the Spirit:
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth...)
I don't know about that but, the Bible (God's Book) talks about the fruit of the Spirit:
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth...)
Ah, there's your proof. The Ultimate Source of Truth doesn't mention it, so it must not be a thing. Well, there's no arguing with that. Except the Bible also endorses slavery and genocide, so I guess we should still be doing that, eh JesusLovesYou? How many slaves do you own and how do you treat them?
Well, your reply to my claim that no life exists anywhere else in the universe was,
“That's speculation and can't be proven or disproven at this point. ”
But I made my claim based on the Bible, which has been a RELIABLE SOURCE with respect to scientific facts, and predictions. Like I told you before, God's Book (the Bible) reveals scientific facts thousands and hundreds of years before modern scientists discovered "and" confirmed them (just click on the link and scroll down for proof).
Well, then, if you aren’t certain, why make a claim that you cannot substantiate? Why presume that life exists on other planets WITHOUT proof? There’s NO reason for life to exist on other planets, nor any reason to make that kind of myopic presumption. Now, if you say that you believe that life exists on other planets I could respect that. I don’t agree with you, but I can respect the fact that you are basing your presumption on faith (i.e. what you believe), as opposed to dogmatic, unproven presumption which is NOT based on scientific fact (just like the multiverse HYPOTHESIS).
My PROOF is the same PROOF that I’ve been affirming throughout this thread. Go back and read my posts again.
That’s just ANOTHER poor excuse. If you CANNOT prove your claims—then DON’T make them.
I haven’t stretched anything. See, if you were as DILIGENT to study the scientific facts revealed in the Bible, THOUSANDS and HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE modern scientists discovered them, you would KNOW this. But you are LAZY or UNWILLING to do this.
Also, you are in NO position to dictate what God should tell His creation. I firmly believe that God told us everything that we NEED to know to be successful in every area of our lives.
It appears that you have made SCIENCE your god.
However,
Can SCIENCE keep you from dying?
Can SCIENCE wash away your sins?
Can SCIENCE protect you from every natural disaster?
Can SCIENCE get you in Heaven?
Can SCIENCE keep you out of Hell?
Can SCIENCE cure all diseases?
Can SCIENCE repair the ozone layer?
Can SCIENCE stop all crime (i.e. terrorism, theft, prostitution, embezzlement, child molestations, , sex trafficking, illegal drugs, rape, abductions, assaults, vandalism, arson, bombings, etc.)?
Can SCIENCE eliminate prisons humanely?
Can SCIENCE end the threat of war?
Can SCIENCE rid the world of ISIS humanely?
Can SCIENCE end greed, and all of the things that stem from it, such as famine?
Can SCIENCE humanely end this: terrorism, sickness, nuclear weapons, famine, recession, inflation, accidents, disease, natural disasters, pornography, drug addicts, hospitals, theft, prostitution, doctors, ambulances, stock market crashes, mental illness, flooding or floods, natural disasters, fire departments, embezzlement, depression, fire departments, depression, child molestations, police stations, clinics, abortion centers, war, sex trafficking, illegal drugs, guns, rape, medicine, crying/tears of anguish, death, sorrow, or pain?
There’s a whole lot of things that SCIENCE CANNOT DO. But God HAS the power to end all of these things. In fact, NONE of these things exist in Heaven. But God gave HUMANS dominion over this world, so it is OUR responsibility to fix these problems—with God’s help. God will not just jump in and override the authority over the Earth that He gave us. You see, God operates by LAW, and will not violate His Word.
However, we CAN invite God into our situations through PRAYER, but God will NOT break His Word. He will ONLY come into our lives and problems through our consent via prayer. In addition to some problems within the Christian church as a whole, there are problems outside of the church. For example, atheists REFUSE to believe in God, and trust Him to fix the world’s problems. They rely SOLELY on their own abilities and SCIENCE which does NOT have the power to fix ANY of the problems that I listed. If believers and unbelievers worked together, and called on the Lord, we could fix every problem on Earth. But the church are the ONLY ones who are depending on God. God has chosen to work THROUGH humans to accomplish His will on Earth. Imagine what could be done if all of the atheists of the world began to trust God? Instead of trusting in science—which has NO power to fix the problems above. No, God does NOT need any of us to do anything, but it is just the way that He operates. I have more to say on this matter, but I’ll end it here.
Lol, the proof is overwhelming from multiple disciplines and Darwin's original understanding has continued to be confirmed the more that is discovered. And in fact, no evidence has been revealed that contradicts it. Believe it or not, the Bible's account of creation has not held up to scrutiny and even in court it collapsed without sufficient evidence. Why you deny this I don't know. It's simple fact.
Lol, so why doesn't he? He is either impotent or evil. So why call him God?
Like what? What conceptions are better?
Where did the seed come from?
Where did the water that waters the seed come from?
Since you claim that we are grown (or that it makes more sense), where did the LAW of seedtime and harvest that GOVERNS the seed’s growth/development come from?
There is is NO jump. The EVIDENCE of INTELLIGENT DESIGN is OBVIOUS.
Everything that is INDISPENSABLE for Earth to exist, and LIFE on it, exist within the most PRECISELY SET parameters. You can think that this is blind, lucky, random, chance all you want to, but I know better.
It’s STRANGE that the parameters that make a home livable (i.e. the right dimensions, raw materials in the right places, and at the right angles, with all of the right electrical, plumbing, and infrastructural components in all of the right places, working at the right time), on the right lot (most homes are not hanging off of a cliff, or built inside of a volcano), you do not ascribe to blind, lucky, random, chance. But the UNIVERSE, EARTH, and LIFE—which in terms of complexity are WITHOUT PEER, you DO attribute to blind, lucky, random, chance. I think you are being inconsistent in your analysis, and a downright hypocrite.
I can't see the link at the moment, but don't you know that it was probably written by Godless heathens who don't know the Truth of God's Word, so it's debunked from the start?
KMC Community Forums
Jun 19th, 2017 05:52 PM
