These seem like two different scenarios to me. Because even if it is extremely difficult to attain a change of heart, that doesnt necessarily make it impossible for a Hitler type character to do so. Let's assume he somehow snuck out and moved to South America before the ally troops took Germany, as so many conspiracy theories would have us believe. Then he starts a new life there in South America, and through whatever chain of events necessary for him to do so, he ends up sincerely reflecting upon his actions as dictator with genuine remorse and has every intention to spend the rest of his life trying to be the best person he can be.
What should God do with him when he dies? Heaven or hell? My gut feeling says that no matter what Hitler does or feels AFTER he carries out his genocide, if anyone deserves hell it's him. Maybe I'm not a very forgiving person. I'm certainly not Jesus. But I feel that for me, sometimes "sorry" (not matter how genuine) just isn't good enough.
Does anyone not Go To Heaven? God says we all get there.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.
Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?
Hell is obviously an invention of the church. Universalists Gnostic Christianity and other Universalist Abrahamic cults do not see God as a loser of the souls he calls the light of the world.
The light of the world does not end in hell.
The logic behind Universalism begins with knowing that all souls are created equal. It thus follows that God would treat all souls the same way and would all be given the best possible end due to us being the light of the world and equal. This follows natural law as well as heavenly law as those are never in conflict.
Look at judging, from God’s point of view, with an example of one we mostly think of as evil, Hitler.
Hitler would appear before God and as God examines Hitler’s life, he would see that all those Hitler interacted with, and who contributed to what Hitler became, would all have to share the blame and guilt for Hitler becoming the monster we think he was.
If you take that sound judging logic to it’s ultimate end, you will see the logic of either punishing all of us for what we have contributed to evil, or forgive us all for all being exactly what God, if he existed, created us to be.
Non-Universalist creeds, that have that imaginary religious creation called hell, are trying to appease their own blame and guilt by placing some souls above others even though God would have created us all equal. God unites while religions separate.
Do you believe God to be a Universalist God, or a God that is such a poor creator that he would have to send his perfectly created souls to eternal punishment instead of just curing them, if required?
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Yeah thats why I'm a universalist.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
I'm not on board. I agree that we are all made equal, well not biologically, but with the same rights and such. I do not agree that everyone should get into a Heaven. The above Hitler example makes no sense to me at all. You do not judge all equally if they do not all equally do the same thing. Why would someone who had a similar struggle to Hitler be judged the same as Hitler if he did not commit the atrocities? At the end of the day, how you respond to your struggles defines your character, and that is what you should be judged on for the most part. Now there are certain exceptions such as child soldiering where choices were never really given, but that is where I would subscribe to God being a poor one if I believed there was a God.
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
My stance is that when everyone dies they get a knowledge of how they've lived their lives that proportionately punishes them for their sins and equips them to move past their remaining flaws, and once the person chooses to take personal responsibility for who they are and progress individually they get into heaven.
Basically everyone gets into heaven IMO, but if you're an evil prick in your ligthats gonna come back to bite you in the ass and you'll have to take personal responsibility for who you are before you get in.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Too much of the supernatural in that for Gnostic Christians as we hold no supernatural beliefs.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
You are strong on self responsibility, which I like. Have you accepted and experienced what you describe above?
Where is heaven to you. Which God is judging you if not you?
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, however I've been busy with work and shit.
To an extent yes, but not perfectly because I am a flawed human being.
On my third LSD trip, I spent the first several hours consumed by euphoria, a sense of connection with the world, open honesty with the people who were with me, and most importantly love for myself, other people, life in general, the emotional and physical sensations that make life worth living, and I felt completely uninterested and unpreoccupied with trying to project a specific image of myself to myself or other people. It felt, for lack of a better word, divine and beautiful, and it's the closest real life example I have to what I think Heaven would be like.
At a certain point however several hours into the experience, my mind got lost and confused, and I started to feel disconnected from everything, which lead into feelings of fear, confusion, shame, self-loathing, loneliness, etc. and all in all something hellish that I think exists on some level within every human being. At a certain point I realized that almost every action I make impacts other people, that every choice I make inflicts my will on the world, and I questioned what right I had to do that and whether or not I deserved to even exist.
In a conversation with my best friend however, I pulled myself out of that downward spiral with genuine human connection and got myself sorted out so to speak. I realized that if I applied that same logic of me not deserving to exist, then nobody deserves to exist, but if nobody existed the universe wouldn't have meaning, and if the universe had no purpose it wouldn't exist. That made me realize that it's love that allows us to turn our impacts on each other's lives into something positive and create a better world instead of just needlessly hurting each other over and over again.
Ultimately that experience lead me to take more personal responsibility for who I am as a person and the impact I have on other people. After experiencing the twisted emotional turmoil of insecurity and self-loathing that exists within all of us, I came to the conclusion that that is what motivates arrogance which in turn motivates all evil, and after realizing how every choice I make impacts the world I realized how unjustified arrogance is, so I committed myself to being more humble and self-loving (as opposed to arrogant and self-loathing), to avoid letting that suffering control me and spreading suffering to other people's lives. And after feeling love and connection on that level and realizing philosophically how truly transcendent it is and how it literally is the cornerstone of progress and good (not to mention how it pulled me out of the ****ed up part of that experience) I felt it worth committing myself to with everything I am.
Sometimes I struggle and fail, but for the most part I think I'm a better person than I was before that experience, and when I'm in that proper mindset of humility, self-love, and love for others I feel like the emotional pressure of that internal suffering has been lifted, and I feel a peace within myself that I didn't know before that experience.
Well Heaven to me is a post-mortem spiritual plane we arrive at after sorting ourselves out and moving past our remaining flaws, where we experience deep emotional connection (ie. pure love) with God and every other being in Heaven, the final and eternal end to the struggle of being human so to speak. It would be somewhat similar to how I described the first part of my acid trip, but much more intense and profound.
That quote you provided does actually help me articulate my perspective though:
After my first two LSD trips I came to the conclusion that connection is the most transcendent thing in the universe (manifesting on an emotional level as love, but also as knowledge, power, purpose, choice, and also being what scientific law is based upon etc.) and that connection is defined by a balance between individuality and conformity, as connection can only exist between things that are separate (individuality) but relate to each other in some way (conformity).
So on an emotional level that connection would be love, and when Jesus says the "Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you" I take that to mean it is within you and within other people, and manifests through genuine human connection between people, which is what I believe the state of Heaven in the afterlife looks like, but also how aspects of Heaven can be manifested in this life, which is where individual and societal progress in our world as well as emotional fulfillment comes into play.
And when Jesus says to be acquainted with yourselves and that if you aren't you dwell in and spread poverty, I believe that the heart of good is self-awareness. On my 4th LSD trip I came to the conclusion that self-awareness is the ultimate truth since the one thing we can be 100% certain of is our own existence (which is why I think its no coincidence that God introduced himself to Moses as "I am that I am" a statement of self-awareness). Self-awareness is what allows us to embrace and appreciate our own existence, as well as keeping us from having a distorted view of ourselves that I consider the two sided coin of arrogance and shame that evil is rooted in, which ultimately leads us to self-love and humility, which leads to love for other people as well, and allows good to manifest through our connections with other people.
Thanks for reminding me of that quote though, which I had honestly forgotten about since I hadn’t seen it since before my LSD trips. Its statements like these that reinforce my faith in the divinity of Jesus, as well as the conviction that even if I’m wrong about the divinity of Jesus, he still remains more deserving of my respect than any other philosopher in human history.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Well due to the cosmological and teleological argument I believe in the existence of a God. On the basis of the cosmological argument, that existence must be caused by some higher principle, be it chance (which I find extremely unlikely given the fine tuning of our universe) infinity (which advocates of infinite universes would posit, which I have my own disagreements with that are a bit complex to delve into in an already long running post), or in my case I remain convinced that that principle is the most transcendent principle I have ever observed, that being connection since connection is what allows for fulfillment in my life, for progress to take place on an individual and societal level, and IMO what the conceptual framework of scientific law is based upon (concepts formed out of connections that connect to other concepts, and form greater or more complex rules and ideas, etc.), so if I am to view that as the transcendent principle, then connection appears to be manifested through love, knowledge, power, purpose, and choice, which leads me to the conclusion of a it being a sentient transcendent being, an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-purposeful (explaining why God needs no external source of purpose to justify his own existence) God. And as far as the Christian concept of the Holy Trinity is concerned, that seems to perfectly embody the nature of connection given that three beings in one is a perfect representation of a balance between individuality and conformity, and that each aspect connects to us in a different way. And the almost frightening extent to which Jesus’s teachings resonate with me and to which his biblically detailed life embodies these principles (ie. born a poor human, humility; literal self-sacrifice, love; resurrection and ascension, transcendence we should all strive towards, etc.) certainly doesn’t harm my faith in the Holy Trinity.
On the basis of the teleological argument, I find our universe existing as a product of random chance statistically impossible given the way the seemingly arbitrary constants of scientific law need to be for life to even be possible in the universe, and though every conceivable reality existing is harder to argue against, if every conceivable reality exists then I find it statistically much more likely that I would exist as a conscious being in a much less ordered universe than this carefully ordered and structured universe I find myself in. So the only thing that makes sense to me from that perspective is something that creates order, which fits in with the Christian principle of the Logos (that which creates order from chaos) which is tied into God being the thing that created the universe in a biblical context and being a title ascribed to Jesus, though “the Logos” is translated to “the Word” in English which IMO leaves something important lost in the translation, however that is the principle which makes sense to me as being the foundation for the ordered reality we found ourselves in, and the Logos relates to the way in which each aspect of the Holy Trinity connects to us (according to Christian theology), with God the Father creating the universe and scientific law, God the Holy Spirit endowing us with self-awareness, and God the Son spreading an enlightened philosophy and living an exemplary human life as something we can aspire to.
So I believe the God that governs these things, passes judgement, pulls me into Heaven, is the Holy Trinity which is the Christian concept of God, and when taking personal responsibility and judging my own life I make use of scientific facts about the physical world (created by the Father), my own self-awareness and internal sense of a moral compass (bestowed by the Holy Spirit), and the teaching and examples of Jesus in order to orient myself properly in the world and in my behavior towards other people.
With everything I’ve just said this is why I believe what I believe and conduct myself in the way that I do, I acknowledge I could potentially be wrong about my faith in the Holy Trinity, and I’m content in the fact that even if it turns out I am wrong about God and heaven I regret nothing about my beliefs since I would still believe the principles I aspire to are worthy ones to aspire to.
Thank you for this conversation
Regards
LSDMB
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
"Its statements like these that reinforce my faith in the divinity of Jesus, as well as the conviction that even if I’m wrong about the divinity of Jesus, he still remains more deserving of my respect than any other philosopher in human history."
I see more than on Jesus in scriptures. One is the Rome created pacifist that would enslave us to religions and governments. Another is the esoteric sage who would free us from religions and governments and has us stand on our own instead of in the tribe.
Many of the policies of the Roma created Jesus are quite immoral. I am thinking of his no divorce and substitutionary punishment policies, just to name two.
Why would you respect that Jesus who is anti-love and would prevent people from finding worthy mates and who demands that we accept the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as good justice?
This is an interesting puzzle, but it just doesn't sit right with me tbh. I feel like if you are going to "judge" who is and is not worthy of heaven, then Hitler is much more unworthy than Hitler's mom or whoever else helped make him the way he is. You can offer up an even more difficult puzzle if you take someone who does something heinous because of some neurological disorder that renders them insane. They might not be at fault, but the only manifestation of "them" that ever existed was evil and insane. So who goes to heaven... the person they would've been without the disorder?
I can get people who think the whole eternal judgement thing is not right. But as long as you do have an eternal judgement system, I'm saying Hitler goes to hell. If you have a judgement system that forgives every single crime or forgives none of them, then it is ultimately pointless.
You might as well just say there's an afterlife but not judgement. But as long as we're drawing a line between "good" people and "bad" people and sending them to different places, I'm saying Hitler belongs in the bad camp. Controversial, I know. But that's my stance and I'm sticking to it.
@ DMB... man, i always hear people deriving this great wisdom and shit from psychedelics like LSD, i'm sort of jealous. because when I did it that kind of shit would not be going through my mind at all. I felt like when I did it, the most insight i got was that it totally made sense that the Govt had tried to use this drug as a sort of mind control/truth serum.
I remember spending like a half an hour trying to convince my brother that it was Ok to go take a shower if he wanted, since I knew I wanted to and was trying to let him go first. Finally I realized he didn't really want to take a shower and I was just wasting time sweating like a drugged up retard wishing I could take a shower.
In your scenario, you would have to see God creating a person insane, and then to punish that insane person for doing what insane people do would be unjust.
That logic would apply to those susceptible to manipulation by evil people.
You may not like the implication of Universalism but it is the most just system possible for a heaven, especially if you consider that it is unjust to punish someone infinitely for sins in a finite world.
If you raise your child to be a thief, do you hold some blame when he is caught stealing?
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Jul 20th, 2017 11:35 PM
