I'm sorry Stealth Moose. While I agree your scans for Yoda and Sidious's duel further supports the idea that Yoda is RotS Sidious's superior with the blade your analysis on their Force engagement is only an opinion that actively goes against canon which makes it wrong and thus irrelevant.
__________________ "I like big sweaty testicles." - DMB, Gchat, 2017.
It's pretty damn obvious why my 'interpretation' of the evidence is more valid for the purpose of a what-if debate than generic statements which contradict the movie itself.
Let's make this simple:
1. G-canon includes GL stuff. The movies themselves. The stuff we can objectively measure because we can all see the same evidence. i.e. the screen grabs, the HD Youtube link.
2. C-canon includes stuff based on GL's work but not made by him. This includes blurbs, summarizations by secondary sources, novelizations which contradict the movie version of events, Clone Wars novels which allude to the events in question, supplemental evidence like sourcebooks (most of which are written from an in-universe perspective).
3. When a disagreement arises which covers movie events, movie evidence is the only objective measurement to use. All else is subjective. As GL/Chee said and as you've parroted at least once - the further you go from the movies, the 'muddier' things get.
4. I've brought up a detailed rebuttal with G-canon evidence. You can say it's 'my interpretation', but it's very reasonable assumptions made using measurable evidence. It was solid in 2008, and it's just as solid now. Azwrongers' fanwank quick-link evidence does not remove its validity.
5. The idea of 'canon disagrees with you' isn't an argument at all. It's a status quo argument based on the viewpoints of forum members who largely don't defend their claims or accept claims wholesale which already agree with their bias. Given that Yoda's superiority has a strong case using the most objective evidence we can find, and holds up to point by point scrutiny, the idea of "no ur wrong" isn't a counter argument; it's an unsubstantiated refutation.
6. In other words, I'm not wrong because people simply said I am. They have to prove up or shut up. Using C-canon cherry picked sources to ignore actual on-screen evidence is not definitive and is actually dishonest intellectually.
Saying you disagree with my assessment would mean a lot more if you could provide specifics as to where I am wrong using the same evidence.
Having to use vague descriptions from C-canon like "Sids was teh too stornk" isn't conclusive, since Sidious' power didn't win the fight; a long fall and lack of a handrail did.
Let's break this down again:
1. Yoda won the saber fight. This is axiomatic. He outfought Sidious, got inside of his guard several times, won saberlocks, and disarmed him.
2. Yoda won the Force battles. With the pods, Sidious was unable to contest Yoda's single returned pod, despite it being slower and coming at an upward angle against gravity. Sidious' pods, meanwhile, are stopped instantly when Yoda defends himself. Additionally, Yoda won the DBZ style lightning struggle, despite being caught off-guard and having little purchase on the pod.
3. At no point is Sidious' power a determining factor in his victory. Given that I've shown how he loses both major parts of the duel, and won via circumstance, some C-canon blurb saying "Yoda couldn't deal with teh best Sith evah" lacks the validity.
4. Given what I've posted, do you really think Sidious would win on flat ground, without the benefit of ringing out Yoda incidentally?
I see what you're saying. That even though Yoda is confirmed to be an inferior Force user that he may be Sidious's combative equal or superior. That's a fair stance but I think it's pretty apparent that Yoda is also Sidious's combative inferior given his decision to go into exile. Unless you're arguing from the standpoint that Yoda retreated because clone reinforcements would arrive soon and tip the fight in favor of Sidious even if Yoda had been the overall superior combatant.
1. No argument from me there.
2. Disagree with you here. Aside from canonical quotes disproving this stance, Sidious choosing to dodge an incoming projectile that seemingly has a lot of power behind it is just smart and doesn't demonstrate that he lacks power to do so. That'd be the same as saying that since Yoda dodged Sidious's pods he couldn't stop them. I disagree that he won the lightning match as well, as shown in the Plagueis novel, powerful Force users can sense when someone is gathering their power and even what they're going to use that power for.
"With a gesture of his other hand, Venamis called for his lightsaber, but Plagueis was a split second quicker, and the hilt shot into his own right hand. Sensing a storm of Force lightning building in the Bith, he crossed the two crimson blades in front of him and said: “Yield!" - Darth Plagueis.
"With the table accelerator humming to life and the Kubaz sliding some of his chits across the gambling grid, Plagueis stretched out cautiously with the Force, sensing intense concentration on the part of the Kubaz, and then an extraordinary surge of psychic energy. The Kubaz was using the Force—not to steer particles along certain paths but to dazzle the electromagnets and significantly reduce the number of paths the created particles were likely to take." - Darth Plagueis.
Yoda had a lightsaber blade in his hand and it was actively torn from his grip by Sidious's lightning shown that Sidious was able to overpower Yoda's augmentation. Yoda acquitted himself well in the Force lock but as we've seen in TFU and DoE Force user's are able to amp their capabilities by drawing heavily on their reserves. Given Yoda's lightsaber was torn from his grip despite likely knowing the assault he would have to weather from Sidious it seems likely to me that Yoda used most of his remaining reserves to defend himself against the lightning and that his retreat was ultimately based off of his flagging energy.
3. It doesn't matter if, from your perspective, it's shown or not since it's stated. And you didn't show that he won via "circumstance." You showed that Yoda using an unknown amount of his reserves was able to match Sidious in that Force lock.
4. I do, yes.
__________________ "I like big sweaty testicles." - DMB, Gchat, 2017.
__________________ "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species... finally, the galaxy itself."
- Darth Plagueis
"She may be small but she packs a punch and when shes in this mood...she goes for my danglers" - Oghren, Dragon Age
Summaries and blurbs which reference an event >>>> actual event itself.
That's just so mindboggling.
Let's do some critical thinking here. If you see video of a crime, and later read a newspaper article about the crime, which source is more absolute and reliable for evaluation?
(Hint: It's the actual recording of the crime. If you said newspaper article, you're stupid.)
1. 'Canonical statements' mean jackshit without evidence to back them up, especially when they consist of C-canon attempting to masquerade as G-canon.
'Canonical statements' say Sids knew and somehow mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat. G-canon shows Sidious losing both of his duels against Mace and Yoda. Should we accept blindly C-canon meant to embellish actual canon, or use reason to evaluate the evidence we can actually substantiate.
It's really really simple: without evidence, it cannot be defended. Saying Sidious was more powerful in the Force than Yoda requires evidence, which the movie does not provide. Indeed, Yoda actually throws back everything Sids uses. Comparatively, Yoda does not use the Force offensively, and when he does, Sidious doesn't try to defend himself against it.
You could say "Him not stopping the pod isn't evidence of being unable to do so", and in a certain light, you're right. However, if you assert "He could do so, he just chose not to, because leaping to the side is better", this begs the question of why he didn't just stop the pod as well. After all, he would have to do less work than Yoda did; he had gravity on his side. He also had all the time in the world.
It also makes me wonder why every time Yoda counters his Force powers he pulls a scared face. I mean, I use a scared face when I assert my Force dominance over others, but that's just because I'm really good.
2. Your Plageus evidence doesn't quite aid your assertion here. I'll break it down yet again:
- Yoda leaps to the pod to confront Sidious.
- Sidious looses a bolt of lightning, which causes Yoda to lose his blade and react. Yoda nearly falls from his perch.
- Sidious applies more power, and the concentration of the energy is farther from him, because Yoda caught it barely and he's pouring more of it.
- Yoda grimaces, and begins to push back the attack, despite being caught off guard and hanging on to a precarious perch.
- Sidious makes his Scared Face of Dominance, and then the energy goes rogue, blasting back both combatants. We -clearly- see Sidious catching a rail, while Yoda cannot do the same and falls, being effectively ringed out.
Can you point out to me where Sidious won the Force duel? Did he use his amazing Force powers to grab a rail? Is that it? I'll concede that point. After all, the greatest Sith user evah must have won against the greatest light side user evah by virtue of good hand grip. A shame he lost that power when Vader benchpressed him into the abyss.
3. As I've said repeatedly, 'canonical statements' which are themselves vague assertions based on evidence we can both see for ourselves can be evaluated using reason, instead of blind acceptance. This isn't the Bible; you can freely question their validity and for intellectual integrity, should.
The movie, which is the most easily interpreted evidence, the one which best fits GL's vision, and per the old canon rules before Disney, superceded all other forms of canon, has evidence which clearly shows Yoda dominating in the saber fight, and dominating or at least stalemating in the Force fight.
The assertion that Sidious won either aspect of the duel does not reflect in the evidence. Secondary evidence of a lesser nature which supports your assertion is not absolute and requires scrutiny.
4. Why?
But not Revenge of the Sith, the movie. Lern 2 read.
No, neutral ground would preclude a ring out based on one side luckily clinging to a rail and the other, lacking a rail, falling a considerable distance.
You obviously don't know what neutral ground is, and should probably lern 2 read.
1. 'Canonical statements' mean jackshit without evidence to back them up, especially when they consist of C-canon attempting to masquerade as G-canon.
1. I'm sorry then. We're not going to agree on this. Canonical statements mean more then your opinion to me.
'Canonical statements' say Sids knew and somehow mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat. G-canon shows Sidious losing both of his duels against Mace and Yoda. Should we accept blindly C-canon meant to embellish actual canon, or use reason to evaluate the evidence we can actually substantiate.
How does Sidious losing to Mace and Yoda mean he didn't master all 7 forms of lightsaber combat? We should accept stated facts regardless of our opinions.
It's really really simple: without evidence, it cannot be defended. Saying Sidious was more powerful in the Force than Yoda requires evidence, which the movie does not provide. Indeed, Yoda actually throws back everything Sids uses. Comparatively, Yoda does not use the Force offensively, and when he does, Sidious doesn't try to defend himself against it.
The movie doesn't need to provide it when another source does.
You could say "Him not stopping the pod isn't evidence of being unable to do so", and in a certain light, you're right. However, if you assert "He could do so, he just chose not to, because leaping to the side is better", this begs the question of why he didn't just stop the pod as well. After all, he would have to do less work than Yoda did; he had gravity on his side. He also had all the time in the world.
Because he chose not, it's as simple as that. A logical reason being it was simply less energy to move out of the way.
It also makes me wonder why every time Yoda counters his Force powers he pulls a scared face. I mean, I use a scared face when I assert my Force dominance over others, but that's just because I'm really good.
I don't really care why Sidious makes spoopy faces. Unless it supports a point that isn't contradicted by actual canon it's irrelevant to me.
2. Your Plageus evidence doesn't quite aid your assertion here. I'll break it down yet again:
- Yoda leaps to the pod to confront Sidious.
- Sidious looses a bolt of lightning, which causes Yoda to lose his blade and react. Yoda nearly falls from his perch.
- Sidious applies more power, and the concentration of the energy is farther from him, because Yoda caught it barely and he's pouring more of it.
- Yoda grimaces, and begins to push back the attack, despite being caught off guard and hanging on to a precarious perch.
- Sidious makes his Scared Face of Dominance, and then the energy goes rogue, blasting back both combatants. We -clearly- see Sidious catching a rail, while Yoda cannot do the same and falls, being effectively ringed out.
Yes.
Can you point out to me where Sidious won the Force duel? Did he use his amazing Force powers to grab a rail? Is that it? I'll concede that point. After all, the greatest Sith user evah must have won against the greatest light side user evah by virtue of good hand grip. A shame he lost that power when Vader benchpressed him into the abyss.
Ah ah ah. I never said he won the Force duel. I said, and I quote ""I disagree that he won the lightning match as well" ( in reference to Yoda ) in regards to your claim that Sidious had caught him off guard.
3. As I've said repeatedly, 'canonical statements' which are themselves vague assertions based on evidence we can both see for ourselves can be evaluated using reason, instead of blind acceptance. This isn't the Bible; you can freely question their validity and for intellectual integrity, should.
I'm sorry. I can't question a statement of fact unlike yourself. You're just too much of an enlightened individual for me. Your gospel means nothing to this sinner.
The movie, which is the most easily interpreted evidence, the one which best fits GL's vision, and per the old canon rules before Disney, superceded all other forms of canon, has evidence which clearly shows Yoda dominating in the saber fight, and dominating or at least stalemating in the Force fight.
I disagree. At best it had evidence indicating your position. And if these C canon sources didn't exist to clarify events I might even agree with your interpretation. Unfortunately, they do exist, and I find myself compelled to side with their version of events over yours'.
The assertion that Sidious won either aspect of the duel does not reflect in the evidence. Secondary evidence of a lesser nature which supports your assertion is not absolute and requires scrutiny.
Interpretations of higher canon evidence doesn't beat clarifications of lower canon imo. That's my position and I'm not going to be changing it anytime soon.
4. Why?
For the reasons listed above.
__________________ "I like big sweaty testicles." - DMB, Gchat, 2017.
Jul 16th, 2017 04:33 PM
