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Beerus vs Darkseid
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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True Darkseid will have a new Parademon.

Old Post Jul 23rd, 2017 10:29 AM
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cdtm
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Even a Darkseid avatar can capture/erase souls, or trap Beerus in an endless parade of dimensions. He has literally no defense for some of Darkseid's more exotic powers.


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Old Post Jul 27th, 2017 11:04 PM
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Robtard
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True Darkseid is omnipotent, so he just cockslaps Beerus


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Old Post Jul 28th, 2017 12:54 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

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omnipotent is a strong word...


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Jul 28th, 2017 06:15 AM
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NewGuy01
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It's a strong word for most of the folks we call omnipotent around here.

Old Post Jul 28th, 2017 05:12 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

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As far I'm concerned, you can only be considered omnipotent if you're supreme in your respective fiction, capable of anything and everything. Examples include The One Above All and The Presence.


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Jul 28th, 2017 10:24 PM
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ares834
Grand Moff

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The Presence is not supreme.


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Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 01:57 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

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Prove it.


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 06:58 AM
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ares834
Grand Moff

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Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. The Great Evil Beast is the Presence's equal and counterpart, ergo the Presence is not supreme. Then in another comic, the Presence claims to have been shaped by other external forces.


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Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 08:44 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

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1. It was implied in later comics that if Spectre was able to harness his full power, he would have been able to stop GEB, lol...even if we assume they were equals, Yahweh merges with GEB at the end of the comic, creating the current Presence as we know him.

2. Him being shaped by external forces was confirmed to be the dreams of mankind. Shaped doesn't mean created, just his form and appearance. A similar notion is shown with Michael Demiurgos, due to some people's dreams he's shaped to be Michael the Archangel, but for others, he appears as Kali, the Hindu goddess of death.


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 02:02 PM
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ares834
Grand Moff

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1. I don't care what is "implied". The GEB is the Presence's equal and counterpoint as mentioned in the comic. Unless their merged form is infinitely greater than the parts, then he is not Omnipotent.

2. Which still shows he is not all powerful.


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Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 02:55 PM
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MythLord
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1. GEB is the equal of the Divine Hand, which is an aspect of the Presence, just as the Source, LOGOS or the Voice are.

2. Not sure how that's relevant. Yahweh chooses to appear as what people dream/think of him, so that they don't lose their minds He's noted as much to Elaine. We know that even Lucifer is above Dream(who's also a bi-product of two of Yahweh's other children: Mother Night and Father Time) who has total control over all dreams in existance, so why should the Presence be subserviant to his grandchild who happens to be far inferior to even the Demiurgos and the Morningstar?


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Last edited by MythLord on Jul 29th, 2017 at 06:19 PM

Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 06:17 PM
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cdtm
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Ostranders Specter delves into the metaphysics of multiple creation myths, when the protagonist tells Zeus in a disagreement on the various accounts: "They can not ALL be true!", to which Zeus simply responds "Why can't they? Creation can have many aspects."


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Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 06:33 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Omnipotent

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
1. GEB is the equal of the Divine Hand, which is an aspect of the Presence, just as the Source, LOGOS or the Voice are.

2. Not sure how that's relevant. Yahweh chooses to appear as what people dream/think of him, so that they don't lose their minds He's noted as much to Elaine. We know that even Lucifer is above Dream(who's also a bi-product of two of Yahweh's other children: Mother Night and Father Time) who has total control over all dreams in existance, so why should the Presence be subserviant to his grandchild who happens to be far inferior to even the Demiurgos and the Morningstar?


thumb up and this falls in line with the idea that a "fully harnessed" Spectre could defeat GEB.


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 08:19 PM
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ares834
Grand Moff

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Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
1. GEB is the equal of the Divine Hand, which is an aspect of the Presence, just as the Source, LOGOS or the Voice are.


Where is this stated? In the comic, the GEB is stated to be God's counterpart.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
2. Not sure how that's relevant. Yahweh chooses to appear as what people dream/think of him, so that they don't lose their minds He's noted as much to Elaine. We know that even Lucifer is above Dream(who's also a bi-product of two of Yahweh's other children: Mother Night and Father Time) who has total control over all dreams in existance, so why should the Presence be subserviant to his grandchild who happens to be far inferior to even the Demiurgos and the Morningstar?


Apparently because Carrey claims so. Regardless, god claims he is "shaped" by these forces (whether you take them to be dreams or not), not that he chooses to take that form. Which would show a limit to his powers.

Edit: And apparently, according to the wiki, he was wounded in the newest Lucifer series.


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Last edited by ares834 on Jul 29th, 2017 at 09:11 PM

Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 09:05 PM
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MythLord
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Where is this stated? In the comic, the GEB is stated to be God's counterpart.


The fact that it wasn't Yahweh that directly intervened, but instead his divine hand, which as we know is just an aspect; if the Presence used Spectre as a channel for his full powers he would've defeated GEB. Also, the GEB is an aspect of the Presence as well, its shadow if you will.

It's the same as the Source being Yahweh, yet being inferior to Soulfire Darkseid or the combined might of Zeus and a bunch of other high-tier gods. Ultimately, all these are just avatars and aspects of one much larger being.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Apparently because Carrey claims so. Regardless, god claims he is "shaped" by these forces (whether you take them to be dreams or not), not that he chooses to take that form. Which would show a limit to his powers.


Yeah, because he allows himself to be shaped by it. The idea that the limit to his power is set by his grandchild is lolworthy.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Edit: And apparently, according to the wiki, he was wounded in the newest Lucifer series.


That wasn't really Yahweh; that was a small portion of him that grew corrupted and didn't have his omnipotence, since that was passed down to Elaine.


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Last edited by MythLord on Jul 29th, 2017 at 09:59 PM

Old Post Jul 29th, 2017 09:55 PM
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ares834
Grand Moff

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
The fact that it wasn't Yahweh that directly intervened, but instead his divine hand, which as we know is just an aspect; if the Presence used Spectre as a channel for his full powers he would've defeated GEB. Also, the GEB is an aspect of the Presence as well, its shadow if you will.

It's the same as the Source being Yahweh, yet being inferior to Soulfire Darkseid or the combined might of Zeus and a bunch of other high-tier gods. Ultimately, all these are just avatars and aspects of one much larger being.


That's all an assumption on your part simply because God appears as a hand. The text notes that the GEB is God's counterpart and he existed outside his creation.

Ultimately, I see no reason to assume that the "hand" is merely some aspect of God rather than God himself. Especially since Etrigan straight up says it is.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, because he allows himself to be shaped by it. The idea that the limit to his power is set by his grandchild is lolworthy.


That's what Carey is saying. *shrug* Frankly, I've always taken as a more meta comment and, since I'm a fan of Death of the author, that's how I still take it. It would also fit more with Morrison's cosmology.


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Last edited by ares834 on Jul 30th, 2017 at 02:36 AM

Old Post Jul 30th, 2017 02:30 AM
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MythLord
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
That's all an assumption on your part simply because God appears as a hand. The text notes that the GEB is God's counterpart and he existed outside his creation.

Ultimately, I see no reason to assume that the "hand" is merely some aspect of God rather than God himself. Especially since Etrigan straight up says it is.


God has no true form, though, only aspects through which he acts. The fact thatthe Spectre could've defeated the GEB if Yahweh gave him enough power tells us all we need to know on the subject of who's superior.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
That's what Carey is saying. *shrug* Frankly, I've always taken as a more meta comment and, since I'm a fan of Death of the author, that's how I still take it. It would also fit more with Morrison's cosmology.


Carey is clarifying what he meant with the scan. And Morrison actually openly acknowledges Gaiman's works and the entire Sandman/Lucifer storylines for what they are so he seems to hold the idea that Yahweh is also omnipotent.

You're free to interpret it how you like, but a clarification on the subject shows God is only "shaped" by dreams and prayers and that is usually how he wills it.


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Old Post Jul 30th, 2017 08:12 AM
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ares834
Grand Moff

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Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
God has no true form, though, only aspects through which he acts. The fact thatthe Spectre could've defeated the GEB if Yahweh gave him enough power tells us all we need to know on the subject of who's superior.


Except that's not stated at all. It says he could have prevent the war between Heaven and Hell not defeat the GEB itself... That's a very different thing. The GEB is not a force of Hell after all but something beyond creation.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by MythLord
Carey is clarifying what he meant with the scan. And Morrison actually openly acknowledges Gaiman's works and the entire Sandman/Lucifer storylines for what they are so he seems to hold the idea that Yahweh is also omnipotent.

You're free to interpret it how you like, but a clarification on the subject shows God is only "shaped" by dreams and prayers and that is usually how he wills it.


He is not clarifying that in your scan though. The Presence is mentioning why he "choose" to appear as her mother. However, in the comic where God mentions being shaped, it's clear he is more than simply referring to something as mundane as his physical form. God is stating that no one can make themselves, not even himself. He is stating that he was created "shaped" by these other forces. If we take Carey's statements as fact, then God is created by the dreams and beliefs of his worshipers. A fairly common trope all things considered.

My Morrison comment was more bringing up how his cosmology is more "meta" than Vertigo's and if we take "external forces" to refer to author/editors the two would fit more nicely. Regardless, Morrison's version of "God" is certainly distinct from the Presence being not the creator but the canvas.


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Old Post Jul 30th, 2017 09:46 AM
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MythLord
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Except that's not stated at all. It says he could have prevent the war between Heaven and Hell not defeat the GEB itself... That's a very different thing. The GEB is not a force of Hell after all but something beyond creation.


Technically, the Great Evil Beast is the whole reason for the struggle between Heaven and Hell in the first place. The only way to prevent that is to stop it, which the Spectre could've done assuming he channeled enough of Yahweh's powers.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
He is not clarifying that in your scan though. The Presence is mentioning why he "choose" to appear as her mother. However, in the comic where God mentions being shaped, it's clear he is more than simply referring to something as mundane as his physical form. God is stating that no one can make themselves, not even himself. He is stating that he was created "shaped" by these other forces. If we take Carey's statements as fact, then God is created by the dreams and beliefs of his worshipers. A fairly common trope all things considered.


Yahweh also notes he's "infinite and eternal" in the same scan. And how can he be shaped by dreams if he existed before the concepts of dreams? God wasn't created in any sense by his worshippers dreaming him, he merely takes form to grow accustomed to said Dreams. It's the same as Morpheus being seen as a different being to pretty much anyone who encounters him. Or Michael being seen as Kali rather than the Archangel. Otherwise, no God has no actual shape, just aspects through which he acts.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
My Morrison comment was more bringing up how his cosmology is more "meta" than Vertigo's and if we take "external forces" to refer to author/editors the two would fit more nicely. Regardless, Morrison's version of "God" is certainly distinct from the Presence being not the creator but the canvas.


Actually, in Grant's works Yahweh is actually still kind of the creator whereas Overvoid is the canvas.


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Old Post Jul 30th, 2017 12:19 PM
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