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Triggered: Stories to make you mad.
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Beniboybling
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Location: United Kingdom

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
I searched for an explanation of the high suicide rate in the shit you just posted. Hey Beni, do you wanna guess what I found?

Like, post which parts of your post you think convinced me of that, if you had to guess.
No I don't, now try a real rebuttal and I'll consider displaying an interest.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:15 AM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Clinging to my stat lol, I asked you to explain it, you failed. What a joke you are.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not a mental illness because it doesn't fit the definition i.e. behaviour patterns that cause distress or dysfunction. Yes, being transgender can lead to such a symptoms and this is called gender dysphoria, negative feelings that arrive from a person's gendered experience failing to match how they feel internally. However, not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria, specifically those who are able and allowed to live the way they want i.e. as the gender they perceive themselves to be, and can operate as perfectly functional and stress free members of society - ergo being transgender is not a disorder in and of itself.
confused

Which part are you struggling with?


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:16 AM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

You can post an explanation for the high suicide rate anytime Beni, nobody is stopping you. I'm still waiting lol.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:17 AM
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Adam_PoE
Prince of Eternia

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Location: Royal Palace

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Well Adam, Robtard said it's rude to answer a question with questions.

Did you just contradict him? Or will you hurt me and say you're being rude sad


I am not the one attempting to draw a false analogy between relevantly dissimilar things, and feigning victimhood when it is pointed out to me.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:19 AM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

Indeed, it's always different for you guys of course. I expected it.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:20 AM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
You can post an explanation for the high suicide rate anytime Beni, nobody is stopping you. I'm still waiting lol.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's not a mental illness because it doesn't fit the definition i.e. behaviour patterns that cause distress or dysfunction. Yes, being transgender can lead to such a symptoms and this is called gender dysphoria, negative feelings that arrive from a person's gendered experience failing to match how they feel internally. However, not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria, specifically those who are able and allowed to live the way they want i.e. as the gender they perceive themselves to be, and can operate as perfectly functional and stress free members of society - ergo being transgender is not a disorder in and of itself.
The answer is there friend, the suicide rates are a product of gender dysphoria, not transgenderism.

Now again, which parts are you struggling with?


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:21 AM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am not the one attempting to draw a false analogy between relevantly dissimilar things, and feigning victimhood when it is pointed out to me.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed, it's always different for you guys of course. I expected it.
quote:
and feigning victimhood when it is pointed out to me.
sick


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:25 AM
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Adam_PoE
Prince of Eternia

Gender: Male
Location: Royal Palace

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Indeed, it's always different for you guys of course. I expected it.


It is entirely different, because when you respond to a question with a question, it is an attempt to deflect from your ability to answer that question.

When I did it a moment ago, it was to illustrate the flaw in your premise. You asked why transgender people are allowed to reject reality and you are not. I effectively asked what makes your experience of your gender any more "real" than anyone else's, and how you could demonstrate that.

Then, to deflect from your inability to answer that question, you changed the subject to race. So do you want to qualify your question now, by demonstrating that your experience of your gender is real, and that the experience of others of their gender is not?


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:41 AM
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Afro Cheese
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Intersex births are more common than people think: about 1 in 150,000. Intersex people have as strong a sense of their gender as other people do. The problem is that you are conflating sex with gender. Transgender people know what sex they are. They are not confused about their assigned gender, they reject it.
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.

So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.

Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 07:34 AM
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Flyattractor
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The more IMPORTANCE that is put on things like TRANSGENDER the more actual Gender and Sex seems to get Cheapened.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 07:47 AM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is entirely different, because when you respond to a question with a question, it is an attempt to deflect from your ability to answer that question.

When I did it a moment ago, it was to illustrate the flaw in your premise. You asked why transgender people are allowed to reject reality and you are not. I effectively asked what makes your experience of your gender any more "real" than anyone else's, and how you could demonstrate that.

Then, to deflect from your inability to answer that question, you changed the subject to race. So do you want to qualify your question now, by demonstrating that your experience of your gender is real, and that the experience of others of their gender is not?


I know I get it, you have a laundry list of reasons why it's different. Good stuff.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 11:13 AM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

So anyways:



Yep, at the end the feminist shoots herself in the foot by admitting "it's not about the women". Cue Tucker laughing. The most popular comment on the video says it all lol:

Liberal cannibalism is so beautiful.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 11:14 AM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.

So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.


The 40% suicide rate says it all. I reject the notion that society causes it. These people are not Jews living in Nazi occupied Germany for christs sake. You will not walk down the street and see signs in the windows of stores that say "No transgendered people allowed".

The biggest issue we have seen in this country with trans people is which bathroom they get to piss in.

Also keep in mind that this has poisoned the minds of some people. There are transgender 4 years old now, because their batshit insane parents drank this kool aid. I do not mean to say the 4 yr. olds had operations or hormones, but there are transgender kids. Kids still pissing the bed being allowed to make life altering decisions.


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Last edited by Surtur on Jul 22nd, 2017 at 11:27 AM

Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 11:24 AM
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Beniboybling
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Location: United Kingdom

Sometimes Surt your stupidity beggars belief. Trans people have been stabbed, shot and set on fire. Yes they are facing larger issues that which bathroom they get to piss in.

And there are transgender 4 year olds because some four year olds are transgender, not because their "minds" have been poisoned by "batshit insane parents", that's baseless nonsense, they are guilty of nothing but supporting their child's condition.

Get a f*cking grip.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:02 PM
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Surtur
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Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sometimes Surt your stupidity beggars belief. Trans people have been stabbed, shot and set on fire. Yes they are facing larger issues that which bathroom they get to piss in.

And there are transgender 4 year olds because some four year olds are transgender, not because their "minds" have been poisoned by "batshit insane parents", that's baseless nonsense, they are guilty of nothing but supporting their child's condition.

Get a f*cking grip.


You misunderstand. I'm not saying there haven't been hate crimes against trans or anything, but the biggest trans issue in the country we see is the bathroom. If a trans issue is being discussed in our society it usually tends to be about where they can go to the bathroom.

We DO NOT see the suicide issue being pushed anywhere near as much, for example. Why is that? I think I know, because they do not want to suggest this is a mental illness.


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Last edited by Surtur on Jul 22nd, 2017 at 12:13 PM

Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:10 PM
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Beniboybling
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Location: United Kingdom

Right so what your saying is that trans bathroom laws are the most high profile trans issue in the media right now, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of their situation.

Cool, how does this prove your point?


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:14 PM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.
Well that's just it. Sex and gender don't correlate perfectly, hence why they aren't treated as synonymous.

quote:
I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.
No one ever said sex is irrelevant to gender, the fact that trans people seek to transition is indeed proof to the contrary. But that doesn't change the fact that sex doesn't necessarily determine gender in any kind of rigid way, and in this respect they are distinct.

quote:
So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.
That's not true, recent studies point to SRS having a significant positive impact on trans mental health and quality of life. Some examples:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...3625.x/abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24344788/
https://link.springer.com/article/1...0508-009-9551-1
https://link.springer.com/article/1...0508-014-0453-5

On the other hand, attempting to force behavioural changes on a person in regards to something inherent to their identity seems little different from current practices of conversion therapy, which do not work.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:19 PM
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Surtur
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right so what your saying is that trans bathroom laws are the most high profile trans issue in the media right now, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of their situation.

Cool, how does this prove your point?


My point is that we focus on non-issues to avoid the more serious consequences of being transgender, because people are afraid to approach a conversation that would even remotely suggest mental illness.

Actually wait, Beni...you made me realize something. You *can* blame society for this, in a way. Blame them for shutting their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears to this issue. Ignoring it, while focusing on who pee's where.

It's an easier discussion to have, isn't it? Bathrooms, at least compared to a 40% suicide rate.


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:22 PM
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Beniboybling
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
shutting their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears
Yeah you do this a lot, wait are we talking about you?


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Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 12:36 PM
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Emperordmb
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Do you disagree with the quote of me he posted? Just curious.

Honestly I'm not really sure. On one hand being in a less than 1% minority of people that feels disturbed by the fact that their body is completely mismatched from how they feel on the inside with a 40% suicide rate doesn't exactly scream "mentally healthy" to me, yet at the same time I haven't really looked into the specifics of what constitutes a mental illness, and either way it doesn't effect my political positions or treatment of transgendered people.

I do however agree that your position that it is a mental illness shouldn't be conflated with a hatred or bigotry towards transgendered people. Most people don't think people with mental illnesses should be disparaged so it's not like you're trying to justify hatred or harassment of them with that statement, just that you don't accept the premise of gender identity differing from sex.

As far as my personal stance goes, transgenderism is not desirable, and that isn't to say transgendered people are lesser human beings, but that I would not wish transgenderism upon a human being given the intense identity struggle, search for social acceptance, and high suicide rate involved, meaning I still think it's at least a disorder. Based on this position, if a way to prevent transgenderism from developing say during a pregnancy or whenever it happens is determined, I would support it's use, or if a child has gender dysphoria I don't think it's a good thing to push them towards the opposite gender identity or give them hormones or surgery or anything that ****s with their biological development since they'll statistically settle into their birth sex most of the time.

When it comes to pronouns and socially accepting gender identity, if a transgendered person approaches me and asks me to accept them as the opposite sex I'd be perfectly willing to do that and use the other set of pronouns. Where I draw the line is I will not use made-up pronouns that don't exist (such as xe zir zhe zimself, zeguaelabkah), and I will not accept a made-up identity that isn't culturally or biologically grounded at all (so no genderfluid, femmequeer, agender, gender neutrois, attack helicopter gender bullshit). I'm not sure how I feel about the classification of gender identity as something separate from sex if we don't do the same for other biological attributes, such as having personality trait based racial identities or hair color identities or height identities or whatever that can vary from the biological trait based on personality. With a binary transgendered person regardless of whether or not I think the concept of gender identity is one that should exist, a binary transgendered person is still basing their identity on the archetypal male or female which is grounded in our culture and asking only that preexisting pronouns be used for them, whereas I reject the non-Binary bullshit of trying to impose a nonexistent identity and nonexistent language upon society.

It should be noted that while I'm willing to accept a binary transgendered person and use the male or female pronouns they choose, I do not think social acceptance of transgendered people or the use of specific language should be mandated by law since I consider the government threatening to steal your property or imprison you if you say the wrong thing to be a greater evil than using words in a way that offends people.

As far as the bathroom shit goes, I actually got into an interesting conversation with a few of my friends over why we segregate bathrooms to begin with, and that actually lead me to thinking about that since people argue it prevents sexual misconduct (rape, stall sex, child molestation), however the existence of homosexuality means that this isn't really fixed by gender segregated bathrooms, so what's the point of segregating them? The only thing I could really think of was different accommodations for different genitals. Then I realized that if bathrooms are segregated, it makes more sense to do so on the basis of biological sex than gender identity since the bathroom is not a social setting where personality traits and internal psychology are particularly relevant, and in a bathroom genitals are far more important to the task bathrooms were meant for. So basically if they are segregated, they should be segregated by biological sex rather than gender identity, and if people can use whatever bathroom they want based on how they subjectively identify themselves then what's the point of segregated bathrooms to begin with.


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Last edited by Emperordmb on Jul 22nd, 2017 at 04:48 PM

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