Scourge has visions of the team beating Vitiate and Vitiate beating the team. He has a vision of clarity, at the end, of Vitiate defeating them. "Recognizing the Emperor is undefeatable," because the vision showed the team would lose, he decides to betray the team. However, that doesn't mean this isn't another situation like Anakin in Episode III, where Anakin has a vision of the future and then makes that vision become true. Here, "the vision of clarity" Scourge has is actually the future he's about to do. If that's the case, which likely it is given how "the future is always in motion," then Scourge's own opinion is also irrelevant, since he misread the entire situation due to his cowardice.
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Aug 30th, 2017 at 04:25 AM
No. He recognizes what he recognizes - that the Emperor is undefeatable. If he's recognizing it in reference to his visions, it's irrelevant. It's not Scourge that gives Vitiate the quality of being "undefeatable" it's the narrator. He recognizes what the narrator establishes. How he recognizes that is irrelevant.
Thanks for the fodder tier entertainment you're providing me, kiddo.
He's for the trio. The universe just establishes it.
Scourge recognizes what's established by the universe. He's not recognizing his own opinion. He may recognize the fact throught his opinions/visions/whatever - it's irrelevant. The fact is that Vitiate is undefeatable is a universal truth and he recognized it.
Scourge believes shit! He recognizes a quality that was given by the narrator, thus sharing omniscience with the narrator regarding Vitiate's status in relation to the trio - that is being undefeatable.
Except that, for the trio, he's undefeatable.
He is. Not only that, he's also justifying Scourge betrayal based on the universal truth he just established and Scourge recognized.
Why? Scourge had visions of possibility of victory. The narrator then clarifies - during the actual encounter - that the trio never had a chance (and Scourge recognizes that). There's no contradiction fam.
1.That's vitiate, not valk btw. Regardless, if Revan was a threat to Vitiate, it wasn't due to how powerful he was. The Revan novel shows us that in a fight, Revan is nothing
more than one-shottable fodder to Vitiate:
I know he is not valkorian, but thats the not the point im getting at. Vitiate found ancient sith lords a threat to his power. Being a threat ain't impressive,
Vitiate is scared of death. He is going to find anyone with considerable power a threat. Valkorian was in a vulnrable as heck position/while weakened in the outlanders body,
Valkorian would of been terrified of someone more powerful than the outlander. Revan was a threat in power to Vitiate though, Otherwise a repeat of Nyriss/meetra would of
occured. Not mentioning Revan wasn't in the greatest state at the time. Scourge wouldn't have seen futures of Revan coming ontop, he wouldn't of been describe to have nearly
assassinated Vitiate, Vitiate would of not gotten serious or pissed.
It struck the Emperor in its chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith's emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a
primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan's spine..."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
For the first time ever Vitiate was pissed(enraged) He did not hold back, and conjured his Force lightning storm(a charged version of force lightning).
He released his full power on a Droid, that futher validates vitiates state. Tanking that charged, force lightning ain't the same as taking normal lightning.
It's pretty much all or nothing and Revan barely scrapped through. Revan had next to no issue reflecting his bolts. Vitiate could not Telepathically dominate Revan,
nor could he Telekentically Dominate this Revan. this weakened Revan's closer in parity to Vitiate than Meetra was to Nyriss. The notion of Revan being fodder to Vitiate is
2.In fact, to Revan, Vitiate was undefeatable, even with the aid of his allies:
Cute, and what did they actually do to help in the fight?
That's right nothing.
3.Revan isn't sh!t to Vitiate in terms of power, it seems. sad
On the other hand, Valkorian specifically feared Vaylin due to her potential to become powerful enough to directly challenge him. So much so that Valkorian sent her to
psycho-bootcampto give her conditioning that would allow Valkorian to subdue his daughter regardless of how powerful he was:
Directly challenge him in what way? Power, political rivalry, Militarly? You also have to take in events, like Valkorian becoming a spirit which drastical decreases his power.
We cannot know the circumstances under which Vaylin would try to face Valkorian. Revan started a 300 year mental war with Vitiate/dread guards. And influenced Vitiate. bastila
broke to Malak in mere months. Revan is not as far as you would believe
4.to recap: Revan, one-shottable fodder. Vaylin, someone whose power scared Valkorian. I think it's self-evident whose superior.
Yeah one shottable fodder who he failed to mentally break after 300 years with help. Nearly assassinated him, would of rivaled him in fair conditions. He is such fodder that
Vitiate spent all that time trying to turn him to the darkside/drain, to serve him instead of just killing him. If she was a geniune threat Valkorian would of just killed her
rofl, or have a repeat of Revan in draining her. Nah he likes to use, and manipulate people.
5.Which means that at best, Revan being as powerful as Vaylin is an unsubstantiated assertion. We do however have ways to compare Revan and Valkorian. In the Revan novel, in a
direct fight, we see a pre-prime valk one-shot a pre-prime Revan. Then there's SOR which had a clear message for us: Revan is Valk's b!tch
Swap vaylin and Revan around thanks. SOR Message was, arrogant people making assumptions not just Revan fyi. Though I agree the untrue Revan could not destroy Vitiate, but he
wouldn't be bodied as fast as people believe, if he merged with light Revan the fight would be closer, If you want to go the cosmic force argument,people love to use with plageuis
he was affecting the structure(tapestry) of the force within all Jedi/sith, to the point where the Force reacted and randomly gave the hero's a vision of Revan/Rishi Now him merged.
Vaylin has no combat, or any releated feats to even match Novel Vitiate. Nor has she impacted the force in ways Revan has.
6.Not by virtue of his power unfortunately, hence why he was one-shotted.
Cute he was never one shotted in SOR.
The writers described it as.
"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this
struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."
―Michael Backus (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Writer)
Not onesided one shot but actual Struggle between the two.
Doesn't need to have valkorian when she hasn't shown to beable to contend with SWTOR Vitiate let alone novel.
7.She does have feats actually. In fact, she has feats that outstrip anything Revan has achieved such as:
Destroying a Sanitarium from her ship.
Tearing apart numerous ships while dismantling the force users who boarded them.
Telekinetically rofl stomping Arcann and Senya while greatly slowing the Outlander with a wave of power. Incredibly impressive when you realize that a far less powerful trio in Arcann, KOTFE Outlander, and Lana were capable of lifting the Gravestone.
Cute Tulak hords feat of pulling a ship with TK is far superior, as she set off chain reactions. And Revan would ragdoll him.
Cute, Revan absorbed energies from a blast that would of killed all life in 1km radius.(Not tank, absorb far superior to tanking)
Arcann what? you mean senya. And like I said Tulak hord has done something far superior. Even meetra has pulled a ship from orbeit, sure it would of been smaller. but its more
impressive considering the distance. And she is fodder to Revan, Nihilus could be aruged as well.
Revan is superior to the likes of thon who sealed planet wide DS energies, into a lake. From a botched Ritual of ambria which devistated it's surface.Which was regarded by the JEdi
as the worse DS Ritual/Event seen, which includes naga sadows Solar flares. which shits on vaylin.
MW Revan manipulated the darkside energies of malachor,turning thousands/hundreds of Jedi to the darkside.
A Revan who was Weakend from Tanking several extremely powerful energies(TOS),and fightning the strike team of all the heros who needed light Revans help. Still managed to
Stasis, Marr/Satele/Lana at the same time and hold them still and would of drained them to death. The only Reason the Hero didn't follow was Light Revan protected him, from being
dominated. Controlled Raw power is superior to uncontrolled.
7.5.Vaylin's feats are better, yea. That she favorably compares with someone who's repeatedly made Revan his b!tch only confirms the obvious.
Yeah no and no she does not.
8.You seem to be forgetting that was a chained Vaylin. If you want see how big the difference between a chained an unchained Vaylin is, you need only compare their performances vs Arcann.
There's nothing wonky here. A weakened Valkorian failed to dominate a pre-prime Vaylin, hence I'd argue that Valkorian at his peak couldn't dominate Vaylin at her peak. An inference that aligns with how she's holistically portrayed.
That's more I can say for Revan who has been showe dboth in direct combat and holistically to be Valk's b!tch.
That same chained threat was bested by Senya rofl.
Cute he barely managed to send Arcann off the ledge as well.
That argument won't get anywhere. No feats only acouple of words. Nothing concrete.
Your only argument is that she is a threat to Valkorian. With no sufficent Feats/accolades, or scaling. And your making it seem like she has mastered her powers.
Reached her fullest potential. She is a threat to a weakend/spirit Valkorian who could barely, defeat arcann, even though he casual did so at the start of Kotfe and
the End of KOTET.
The narrator is basically telling that those visions from their victory never had a chance to materialize, as simple as that. There's nothing that suggest, even in the slightest, that the quality of undefeatable is given by Scourge.
The fact the victory visions never materialized does not preclude the notion that the victory visions could not have happened.
We know that the victory visions could have happened:
The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revanís triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
The fact the victory visions could have happened therefore means the Emperor is defeatable.
You are arguing that the Emperor is merely undefeatable in this specific instance, but it is this specific instance in which the visions occur.
All these visions, all these possibilities, are possibilities that may happen within this specific instance.
The fact they never materialized simply means it is unknown who would have won the fight if the fight continued as planned.
Thus, you are arguing that, if the fight continued, the Emperor would not have lost - that the strike would have lost every possible fight conceivable.
You are arguing that, if the strike team fought the Emperor a trillion times, the Emperor would have won a trillion times over.
That is the meaning of the word undefeatable.
This is false. Scourge's vision reveals that there were instances, many, in fact, where the strike team won.
You are also arguing that Scourge's vision granted him temporary omniscience, which is absurd and wildly inconsistent with lore.
The Force is always in motion, that is a key stable of Star Wars lore. Scourge's "vision of clarity" can be interpreted in an alternative way:
Scourge's vision of the strike team losing is the same as Anakin's vision of Padme dying: Scourge views the reality that he is about to make true.
Now, let's consider whose interpretation makes the most logical sense here:
You: Scourge becomes omniscient and his previous visions were outright false*: if the team fight a trillion times, the Emperor would win each time.
* The visions must be false for the word to have meaning. If the Emperor can be defeated in any reality here, then he is not undefeatable.
Myself: Scourge "recognizes the Emperor to be undefeatable" because he sees a vision that he believes is absolute.
Or, in other words, Scourge "perceives to be true that the Emperor is undefeatable" because of a "vision of clarity."
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Man, I wonder which interpretation makes the most sense.
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Aug 30th, 2017 at 06:09 AM