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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) vs Darth Maul (SoD)


Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
Started by: DarthAnt66

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Rockydonovang
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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:28 AM
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Rockydonovang
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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:28 AM
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Rockydonovang
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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:29 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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Well, then I'll be responding to your posts as you pump them out, so by the time you finish your last post you'll have to start with a new batch.

Or you can wait until it's all done and have some breathing room.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:29 AM
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Rockydonovang
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Part 2:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Now, this is just crazy to me. I really can't wrap my head around this argument. "Likely rusty?"

Maul had not fought a lightsaber duel for over ten years.

Lightsaber combat, nor the Force, is not something you can stop for a decade and then just think you're going to be "rusty." You're going to be hell of a lot more than rusty, and that should be obvious. Also, Dave Filoni has discussed that George Lucas is of the view that when Force-users don't use the Force for long periods of time, their connection with the Force begins to fade away, as demonstrated by Maul struggling to initially lift his lightsaber when Savage Opress gives it back to him. Yes, Mother Talzin brought removed the madness within Maul and yes, Maul presumably has dark-side magicks within him, but within Canon, there's little indication he is restored back to his original power right off the gate. Everything points to the contrary, rather, especially with that lightsaber scene.

Overall, it's going to take Maul time to get back to his original power - it's going to take time for Maul to get back into the groove with lightsaber fighting.

As of this fight, which takes place the same episode he is "reborn," he's absolutely not back to where he was, let alone where is he is in Son of Dathomir.

Most importantly, that's demonstrated in how he fights, which we'll get to now.

Aight, I'll take away the likely, keep you antennas on bud.

If Maul is starting at a lower point, that's going to end up lowering where SOD Maul ends up anyway, but as I've acknowledged, Maul was hindered.

Frankly though, while I've given Maul a pass in assuming he was equally hindered as Kenobi was, that's rather generous of me given that Feloni seems to give more weight to Kenobi's hindrance and situation than Maul's. When discussing the fight at detail on Star Wars Celebration, emphasis isn't given to how Maul was rusty as fck, but rather on how Kenobi was set up to lose. For one he describes the situation Kenobi is in mentally as coming across a "worst case scenario":
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m22s

He outright attributes Kenobi's eventual defeat here to the "space" or situation he finds himself in here:
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m46s

Note, this is just Feloni commenting on Kenobi's mental situation. Setting aside that he's physically in no state to fight.

On the other hand, when going into detail about the fight, Maul's rustiness isn't brought up. In fact I'm wondering if anything in canon explicitly states anything about Maul being rusty. While it's a more than reasonable assumption, that we have to assume one, while Kenobi's hindrances are explicitly emphasized tells me we should be giveng Kenobi's disadvantages more weight.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:38 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, then I'll be responding to your posts as you pump them out, so by the time you finish your last post you'll have to start with a new batch.

Or you can wait until it's all done and have some breathing room.

no ant, that's not how fckin debates work
wait till I'm done and then respond

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:38 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Edited 2:56 AM ET)

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Part 2:

Aight, I'll take away the likely, keep you antennas on bud.

If Maul is starting at a lower point, that's going to end up lowering where SOD Maul ends up anyway, but as I've acknowledged, Maul was hindered.


There's no correlation between the two.

quote:
]Frankly though, while I've given Maul a pass in assuming he was equally hindered as Kenobi was, that's rather generous of me given that Feloni seems to give more weight to Kenobi's hindrance and situation than Maul's. When discussing the fight at detail on Star Wars Celebration, emphasis isn't given to how Maul was rusty as fck, but rather on how Kenobi was set up to lose. For one he describes the situation Kenobi is in mentally as coming across a "worst case scenario":
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m22s

He outright attributes Kenobi's eventual defeat here to the "space" or situation he finds himself in here:
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m46s

Note, this is just Feloni commenting on Kenobi's mental situation. Setting aside that he's physically in no state to fight.


Absolutely dreadful rebuttal. "Worst case scenario" isn't referring to mental state. It's referring to fighting two Sith.

He says he's not in the right mindset because he wasn't prepared to fight them. He was prepared to fight something far weaker.

For the "space" sequence, he's saying that they "would eventually lose" anyway - his words, not mine - and thus have to leave to fight another day.

For the record, he claims Maul and Obi-Wan are stalemating each other in the start, which contradicts your notion that Obi-Wan was winning.

quote:
On the other hand, when going into detail about the fight, Maul's rustiness isn't brought up. In fact I'm wondering if anything in canon explicitly states anything about Maul being rusty. While it's a more than reasonable assumption, that we have to assume one, while Kenobi's hindrances are explicitly emphasized tells me we should be giveng Kenobi's disadvantages more weight.

Filoni isn't even talking about what you think he is. He's said next to nothing on Obi-Wan's issues in the videos' you've linked.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 06:54 AM

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:45 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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Part 3:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
These are the first lightsaber strikes Maul is dishing out for a decade. Worst yet, he's in burdensome legs and a terrible environment to fight in. Now, that might not seem like a big deal, but it rather is - so much so that Dave Filoni pointed it out and said he changed Maul's legs to new ones so that he would be able to perform acrobatic feats again (as we see against Sidious). After all Maul is a powerful, energetic, and fast-paced duelist - many ways embodying the prequel trilogy era of lightsaber combat. Here, he has little-to-no room for maneuverability, especially due to his clunky legs. If you watch Maul fight before he manages to kick Obi-Wan twice, he is almost entirely stationary to a ridiclous degree, which is in stark contrast to his fighting style in The Phantom Menace. More interestingly, in the two instances you cited, it has Maul attempting to move - the first instance by moving around Obi-Wan, the second instance running toward him. This visibly demonstrates Maul's current weakness with the legs. He's unable to maneuver and move around and with Obi-Wan comfortably and effectively, and as a result, is almost defeated.

However, after these two instances, Maul learns from his failures, adapts to his new legs, and manages to land two devastating kicks against Obi-Wan. I'd wager Maul could have killed him between the two kicks if he wanted to, but just as Obi-Wan wasn't going in for the kill, Maul isn't either. Maul wants to capture Obi-Wan, not kill him. This is explicitly stated by him in The Lawless. As we will see when I tear apart the second fight, weaknesses still exist with these big legs. Such flaws, however, are notably absent in his fight against Sidious. If you click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m16s) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m41s) you can see levels of mobility that are far greater than what he originally displayed against Obi-Wan in the cited performance.

For the record, Obi-Wan being physically bruised does not equate to these conditions in any way. Obi-Wan is famous for taking a beating. He does not display any visibly injuries that would handicap his performance going into the fight, so I have no reason to believe any exist besides the possibility that some of his hair might have got in his eyes at certain parts of the fight.

1. As noted, both were hindered. However Maul getting taken out twice can't be blamed on the environment's crowded space here as Maul was able to fully extend himself and use his full range of motion(taking into consideration his impaired agility) for the duration of time said hits occurred on. In fact, arguably, the crates cushioned the blow considering Maul otherwise would have hit a harder floor.

2. While Maul had impaired agility, Kenobi was a physical wreck. Even at the start of what we of this torture session Kenobi was put through, he was clearly in no state to fight:
https://youtu.be/tgUfVYZxTjg?t=37s
Already Kenobi's heavily panting and gasping for air.
Then later we see Kenobi needing to lean on Oppress to stand up(still early into what we see):
https://youtu.be/tgUfVYZxTjg?t=44s

3.I find your assertion that Maul's hindered agility is worth noting but Kenobi not even being able to stand up on his own before going through more torture comparatively insignificant to be rather laughable.

4. That Kenobi was able to outmaneuver and avoid Maul's charges when in such bad physical shape and land multiple kicks on Maul speaks highly of Kenobi compared to Maul's inability to cope with impaired agility.

5. As you've pointed out, Maul did land two kicks. But this wasn't Maul passing up on a killing blow, as I've pointed out, this was Maul acting in desperation to prevent himself from getting bisected at the waist a second time. Note that right before the kicks, Kenobi downs Maul's blade and then swings for a perfectly free strike to Maul's waist. Maul didn't bother worrying about trying to kill Kenobi because he was too busy saving his own life. And as it is, despite Kenobi's awful physical state, Kenobi got right up(unlike maul) and would later end up driving maul back despite being physically demolished.

6.As for your claim that Maul wasn't trying to kill Kenobi, you're taking things out of context. When Maul says he never planned on killing Kenobi, that was a simpler way of saying, he never planned on killing Kenobi whenhe lured him to Mandalore. Maul makes rather obvious he fully intends on killing Kenobi during the torture session you laughably tried to dismiss as a non factor in the fight:
https://youtu.be/tgUfVYZxTjg?t=2m1s
Maul was fully intending to kill Kenobi until luring him to Mandalore (when he became aware of Kenobi's love interest). To be fair, I have no idea why you think Kenobi wasn't trying to kill Maul here given he almost bisected him.

7. While both were hindered(honselty, Kenobi, moreso), Kenobi had a clearly better performance.

8. Additionally this fight puts cold water on your assertion Maul can outlast Kenobi given how much Kenobi tanks here despite his awful physical state.

9. I should note Kenobi was "more or less stalemating" overall for the fight which becomes an indictment of how Maul performed when you consider how much of Maul eventually winning would be attributed to him unbalancing Kenobi with dun moch.

10. It's easy to look good when your opponent is toying with you so that they can have a good and enjoyable fight. As you've observed Maul is better with his post-mandalore legs. However trying to assert said boost is enough to bridge the gap between his woeful performance vs an emotionally and physically hindered Kenobi in season 4 while accounting for Kenobi having almost a year to grow is purely arbitrary from season 5 is purely arbitrary.

I'll take the direct comparison in their actual fights over your speculation over how hindered Maul was opposed to Kenobi. smile

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 07:51 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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As for your prior interruption
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(Edited 2:56 AM ET)



There's no correlation between the two.



Absolutely dreadful rebuttal. "Worst case scenario" isn't referring to mental state. It's referring to fighting two Sith.

He says he's not in the right mindset because he wasn't prepared to fight them. He was prepared to fight something far weaker.

For the "space" sequence, he's saying that they "would eventually lose" anyway - his words, not mine - and thus have to leave to fight another day.

For the record, he claims Maul and Obi-Wan are stalemating each other in the start, which contradicts your notion that Obi-Wan was winning.

[/b]
Filoni isn't even talking about what you think he is. He's said next to nothing on Obi-Wan's issues in the videos' you've linked. [/B]

1. There is considering that's Maul's starting point and where this arbitrary amount of improvement you suppose there to be would improve the rusty Maul you are discussing

2. Right, now explain why his emotional situation has suddenly improved to normal after being beaten to a pulp by his captors?

3. Addressed above, the space and them eventually losing addresses the whole fight which includes a portion rather non applicable here.

Note: I'm not countering further interuptions

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 08:01 AM
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JKBart
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i feel sad with ant defending maul not obi


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 11:42 AM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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The only disadvantage Filoni attributes to Kenobi in the S4 finale is not being in the right mind set. Which is frankly Kenobi's own fault and could potentially happen again in future fights.

However Filoni in the S4 IGN interview specifically praised Maul for his win over a Kenobi noting HIS major disadvantage being out of practice. No specific and major disadvantage is noted for Kenobi by Filoni in any interview.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 11:54 AM
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Darth Thor
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" Definitely. In my opinion he did really well for being out of business for about ten years. To come back in and take down Obi-Wan, leaping around on velociraptor legs, he did pretty good."


http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2012/0...ack-at-season-4

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 12:00 PM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

Registered: Jul 2017
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JKBart
i feel sad with ant defending maul not obi


Well, Maul's better than Obi, so Ant is doing the right thing.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 12:06 PM
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Darth Thor
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Well I think Obi-Wan likely edges it out, but giving arguments for Maul as I think the arguments against him are unfair and greatly exaggerating any disparity between the 2.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 01:49 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only disadvantage Filoni attributes to Kenobi in the S4 finale is not being in the right mind set. Which is frankly Kenobi's own fault and could potentially happen again in future fights.

However Filoni in the S4 IGN interview specifically praised Maul for his win over a Kenobi noting HIS major disadvantage being out of practice. No specific and major disadvantage is noted for Kenobi by Filoni in any interview.

Whether or not it's Kenobi's fault doesn't at all make the circumstances which led to it being present here.

And there's the matter of Kenobi not even being able to stand correctly not long before their fight.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 03:28 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang


And there's the matter of Kenobi not even being able to stand correctly not long before their fight.



That's never noted as an issue by Filoni in any interview. And I doubt he'd see it as one given Kanan's final performance against the GI after being brutally tortured for days.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:19 PM
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YousufKhan1212
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Is this an informal CaV?

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:26 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's never noted as an issue by Filoni in any interview. And I doubt he'd see it as one given Kanan's final performance against the GI after being brutally tortured for days.

1. Doesn't need to be for us to apply common sense. Much as while canon never states maul is rusty we derive that from common sense.
2. Based on what was Kanan not hindered?

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:52 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Is this an informal CaV?

well yea, but it seems given the length of Ant's response, it's gonna start being formal looking anyway

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 06:53 PM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

Registered: Jul 2017
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Kanan wasn't hindered, lmao. He was amped.


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Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 07:35 PM
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