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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) vs Darth Maul (SoD)


Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) vs Darth Maul (SoD)
Started by: DarthAnt66

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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Kanan wasn't hindered, lmao. He was amped.

that had absolutely no relevance to my response to darth thor which was regarding Kanan at the start of his fight vs the GI.

Nice try though bud thumb up

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 07:48 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
" Definitely. In my opinion he did really well for being out of business for about ten years. To come back in and take down Obi-Wan, leaping around on velociraptor legs, he did pretty good."


http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2012/0...ack-at-season-4

good find, but I'd say Feloni emphasizes Kenobi's hindrance more tbh. We do have confirmation though that Maul wasn't quite as good as he was as of tpm skill wise.

Old Post Aug 2nd, 2017 07:53 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Doesn't need to be for us to apply common sense. Much as while canon never states maul is rusty we derive that from common sense.
2. Based on what was Kanan not hindered?


1. Common sense has to be relevant to these fictional type of beings and situations though. Why didn't Filoni mention that as part of the reason for Kenobi losing? I mean in every interview he's just completely ignored that.

2. He performed better. If a Padawan can recover from a much worse ordeal and perform better, I'm sure a much shorter and much less severe ordeal shouldn't be much of an issue for a Master.

It's ultimately all down Mind Sets, which is why Filoni only brings that up.

Old Post Aug 3rd, 2017 07:42 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Per Witwer Maul badly underestimated Kenobi in the fight:

https://youtu.be/n3vp15a_Bg4

However it's clear from his and Filoni's statements (and the fight itself) that Maul wasn't Kenobi's equal by this point in time. So the end result would have been th same.

Also note first going into his ROTS warrior stance (th way he used to fight) before quickly realising that's not him anymore. Makes me think more Maul probably would have had stood a decent chance against ROTS Kenobi.

Also of note is Witwer being Filoni's Padawan who is in turn Lucas's Padawan. It's clear he's had a lot of creative input into Animated Maul and likely knows all of Filoni's and Lucas's views on the character.

Personally I take Witwer's opinions over Filoni's. He just makes more sense.

Old Post Aug 8th, 2017 01:02 PM
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nfactor1995
The N-Factor

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This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die

Old Post Aug 8th, 2017 11:11 PM
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slayne
Master of the Scourge

Registered: Feb 2017
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thumb up


__________________
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Old Post Aug 9th, 2017 12:22 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by nfactor1995
This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die

Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 03:03 PM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by nfactor1995
This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die


Indeed.


__________________
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Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 03:08 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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Part 4:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66



This fight is interesting because looking at it passively and looking at it closely will seem a lot different.

Throughout the entire fight, there is consistently three different ways Obi-Wan seizes the advantage versus Maul.

1) What I've dubbed as "The Kick," is, as the name suggests, kicking Maul in the groin. Due to his new legs, Maul's groin area is noticeably longer and larger. This has already been a notable weak point for Maul back in The Phantom Menace, but now, the weakness is exaggerated even further. While Maul has adapted to some elements of his new legs, he has yet to come up with a solution to this. As a result, Obi-Wan, who's demonstrated throughout his fights with everyone that he's exceptional at landing kicks, is able to successfully kick Maul. This weaknesses, however, is resolved by the time of The Lawless. Sidious kicks Maul in the same spot twice during their fight. In the first time, Maul is able to recover fast enough to dodge a quick-moving strike by Sidious aimed specifically at removing his arm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m40s), but killing him, so I see no reason to assume this attack is not at least a resemblance of Sidious' true speed, or at the very least, is not faster than whatever Obi-Wan can strike. In the second instance where Maul is kicked, he is able to transition into a back-flip and then defend himself against a devastating assault by Sidious that would have otherwise torn him to pieces. Again, note that, in particularly this instance, Sidious would be traveling much faster than Obi-Wan would (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=3m18s). Thus, Maul has progressed forward from this particular performance against Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan tries this technique again, it will not work, since even Sidious himself was unable to end the fight this way.

The first kick being referenced here was landed on Maul's chest.

And you're assuming Sidious was going all out against Maul. Frankly, that Kenobi was doing more damage to maul than his vast superior should let you know sids was just having fun. Not to mention that that same fight has Sidious twice stunning someone with maul level durability in Oppress with his kicks.

Chalk it up to that or inconsistency, but your assertion that Maul is beyond being seriously affected by kicks from sub-Kenobi opponents is some rather laughable reaching.

As we've seen repeatedly, TCW Kenobi can hurt Maul physically just fine, how badly maul got beat by sidious isn't changing that. Additionally I can point to Kenobi's ability to stagger(while a physical wreck) Oppress with a punch and then incap him by virtue of physical strikes, not that I need to since we have Kenobi actually fighting Maul.

Kicking is also not the only way we've seen Kenobi seize the advantage vs Maul.

We've seen Kenobi slam Maul's blade down, drive him back(twice) when going on the offense, and outmaneuvering him. On the other hand all Maul's ever actually managed to do to Kenobi in a direct 1 v 1 battle is kick Kenobi when physically and mentally wrecked. And even then, said kicks have done less than Kenobi's.

Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 07:32 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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Part 5:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
2) In the particular kick instance where Maul was disorientated for a duration of time, it appears Obi-Wan kicked his face. Additionally, Obi-Wan was in a leveraged position and Maul's taller than he would normally be due to the legs (insert high-ground joke here), allowing him to strike Maul's head where he might have otherwise hit his chest which would have then made him vulnerable to being cut in half. Perhaps most importantly, if Obi-Wan would have pressed the attack against Maul in this stance, I find it unlikely that Maul would have remained like he was. Maul has handled feeling the slashes of a thousand Jedi striking him and being cut in two. His pain tolerance is arguably the greatest in all of Canon, or at least high among the list. In a situation where Obi-Wan would be about to kill him, Maul would likely summon the necessary strength to deflect it and continue the fight. Since Obi-Wan was not, Maul allowed himself a moment to channel his rage and recover since he was not in particular danger. Also, your claim that he was out of the game for seven seconds is baseless. Maul is visibly only out of the game for about two. We do not know what happened the other five seconds. When it cuts back to him, you see him staring at Obi-Wan. To me, this suggests that while he had yet to fully recovered, he has recovered to the point that he would have absolutely been able to defend himself if Obi-Wan pressed the attack. It's also worth mentioning that since even Sidious didn't land a blow to Maul's head with a kick, I find it unlikely Obi-Wan can replicate such a blow again under neutral conditions and without sensing a fellow Jedi's death, which would obviously compel to get Maul off of him and go check things out, immediately before it happened. This particular rebuttal is continued later on when we get to the "ragdolling" section, so stay tuned.

1. Kenobi didn't kick his face, he kicked the top of his chest which would be more resistant to pain than the lower portions of his upperbody

2. A good observation, however Kenobi kicking him lower wouldn't have made things better here since kicks in stomach are worse than kicks in the chest, especially the pec area which is typically much tougher.

3. I never argued Maul was at Kenobi's mercy there, but maul would be defending from a disadvantage here given how long he took to fully recover from the pain. This would give Kenobi an opening and duels are usually by the dude who can force their opponent into a disadvantageous position.

4. The point being that Kenobi is the one who's doing things of note in their fights, not Maul, likely because, well, Kenobi's better.

5. BTW, We can tell Maul is still recovering because at https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=2m2s
we see Maul jerking his head up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, kicking is not synonymous with penetrating lightsaber defenses. Just because you could kick someone doesn't mean you could have slashed them there instead.

Never said that.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
3) If you look at how Maul fights against Obi-Wan when Savage is with him, something is immediately noticeable. Whenever Maul presses the attack, Obi-Wan is generally able to go off that momentum and then kick and/or attack Savage. Thus, Maul is limited with his options, as demonstrated by the fact that he is, again, almost completely stationary. Maul is not in a situation where he could just launch an all-out assault against Obi-Wan when Savage is in the position where he is. That would be, demonstrably, putting his brother at risk. Overall, too, we see Maul in a situation that is extremely narrow and presents him no room to perform the acrobatic assaults that is essential to his form of lightsaber combat. Maul's just completely disadvantaged here. Ultimately, the fact Savage is fighting alongside Maul does not help, but rather hinders, Maul's possibilities.

Some neat straws you're grasping for here. Not one of the hits Kenobi lands on Oppress features Maul giving Kenobi any momentum. On the contrary, all said hits happen when Kenobi has given himself space away from Maul. The best thing for Maul to do to save his brother here is to press Kenobi so that he's preoccupied. Maul isn't able to do this enough because
A. Kenobi is able to defend against maul is throwing at him before creating space for himself by driving oppress away from maul
B. Maul is having a hard time coping with Kenobi's offense which is why things like this happen:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m46s
C. Kenobi has created space for himself via a kick:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m38s

Your reaching aside, the only unfavorable context for the brothers is Kenobi getting two sabers which admittedly boosts him in the context of a 1 v 2, but in no way does that hinder maul individually in the context of a 1 v 1. Looking at this strictly as Kenobi vs Maul, Kenobi
A. had to deal with the presence of another fighter
B. was forced to utilize a secondary style due to the presence of said fighter.
Maul has unfavorable circumstances of his own in the shape of those legs, but so does Kenobi, and it's Kenobi who did better in this fight.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's really no ground to stand on for that. This particular fight we are having is essentially Maul vs Obi-Wan with all the conditions that let Obi-Wan do what he did gone: Savage Opress is absent so Maul doesn't have to be stationary, there's no dead Jedi that may allow Obi-Wan uncanny focus (Kenobi might not be empowered by the deaths of others, but that doesn't mean it can't increase his focus, especially considering these other circumstances), Maul has new legs so he's going to be able to handle the kicks and will be able to move about far more freely, and the environment would not be disadvantageous to Maul so, again, he's not so constrained and restricted. Obi-Wan, unlike Maul, is able to fight in such constrained spaces due to the benefits of a defensive style with minimal movement.

Not only that, but Maul, now in his Son of Dathomir incarnation, is now going to be even more skilled and even more powerful than last time around!

1. Addressed

2. Your assertion that Kenobi was externally focused is baseless and is contradicted by the very source you're using to assert this. Feloni denies the focus being external and then attributes Kenobi gaining focus to his own character traits. Feloni also cites the focus coming as a result of Kenobi's own choice to right that wrong. The evidence suggests Kenobi focused himself as a result of Galia's death, not that he was circumstantially boosted by external circumstances.

3. They weren't in a constrained space as evinced by Kenobi being able to fully execute his ataru. Aside from not being canon, Shadow Conspiracy is blatantly contradicted by the episode here on this point. Additionally, Kenobi was at his best going on the offense here, not defense, There was no use of soresu here, Kenobi's movements weren't remotely minimal and were far more acrobatic than what Maul's displayed throughout the entirety of TCW.

4. Of everything you've claimed here, only maul's legs serve as a legitimate hindrance here, Kenobi also had a couple of unfavorable circumstances though and he still showed superiority here.

Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 07:33 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
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Given the major combat disadvantage Revenge and Revival Maul has due to his velociraptor legs:

@0:45

https://youtu.be/nJUWUdw-Yis

And given the fact that he's still likely not even a match for his TPM self in a Saber fight, due to still recovering from and adapting to fighting as a cybernetic being:

@ 3:24

https://youtu.be/RGvwH4Z92A0

Revenge/Revival Maul holding his own as well as he did against Revenge/Revival Obi-Wan speaks a lot to his fighting skills and how good Peak (The Lawless/SOD) Maul must be - definitely a good match for ROTS Obi-Wan.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 14th, 2017 at 10:59 PM

Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 10:56 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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1. if he's still not a match for his tpm self, that lowers where his sod self would be and additionally makes you start wondering if in canon, tcw maul is a beter duelist han tpm maul

2. Revenge/Revival Kenobi also had disadvantageous circumstances and still showcased superiority.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Aug 14th, 2017 at 11:42 PM

Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 11:40 PM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

Registered: Jul 2017
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Can't wait for Ant to rip this apart.


__________________
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Old Post Aug 14th, 2017 11:53 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Can't wait for Ant to rip this apart.

A nice escape from regularly getting ripped apart yourself, right?

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 12:20 AM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
A nice escape from regularly getting ripped apart yourself, right?


I don't need to escape from what does not exist+can only happen in your wildest dreams.


__________________
"Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy! And... we shall have... peace."

Last edited by thesithmaster on Aug 15th, 2017 at 01:12 AM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 01:03 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by thesithmaster
I don't need to escape from what does not exist+can only happen in your wildest dreams.

I have better things to dream about than you bud

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 02:18 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. if he's still not a match for his tpm self, that lowers where his sod self would be and additionally makes you start wondering if in canon, tcw maul is a beter duelist han tpm maul

2. Revenge/Revival Kenobi also had disadvantageous circumstances and still showcased superiority.



Leaving the debate portion of this between you and Ant.

But since you count Filoni's every word on Maul's combat abilities as complete Canon, I'm just pointing out clear cut and factual statements by Filoni on the Major Combat disadvantages he was facing up until Revival at least.

I'm not taking vague statements of Filoni's and twisting them to suit my arguments like you have been. Filoni couldn't be more clear on Maul's velociraptor legs and his recovery process.

Given that, the fact that he essentially held his own against Kenobi (not being cut, floored, KO'd or disarmed once in Revival) even in the cave which would have restricted his mobility Even More, says a lot about Maul's Saber and Combat abilities in relation to TCW/ROTS era Kenobi's.

Last edited by Darth Thor on Aug 15th, 2017 at 04:27 AM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 04:22 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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it's almost as if no one actually argued maul couldn't hold his own against Kenobi?
Anyway, my response to ant isn't quite done yet

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 04:38 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
it's almost as if no one actually argued maul couldn't hold his own against Kenobi?



No Maul "held his own" with those major disadvantages on his side. Without those disadvantages he'd easily be Kenobi's equal.

Except for being outnumbered in the final fight, Kenobi faced no disadvantages whatsoever in Revival. On the contrary he was on Peak form. Both mentally and physically.

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 08:11 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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and was also forced to use a secondary style which would be a hindrance in a 1 v 1 against maul. Given Oppress isn't in this fight, we should be looking at the florrum fight as to what it would mean in regards to maul individually.

Anyway, I've repeatedly acknowledged maul had hindrances, but that doesn't justify ignoring that Kenobi also found himself with disadvantages in both encounters.

You also seem to be ignoring this was a pre-prime Kenobi, unless your argument is maul is easily equal to a pre prime Kenobi?
That he was in peak physical and mental form has nothing to do with external circumstances which remain present regardless of what form Kenobi was in.

And yet again, your argument for Maul is dependent on an arbituary assumption of how much bette rmaul would have done without said hindrances,

That Kenobi did better and that Maul had stuff imparing his performance doesn't prove anything regarding how Maul would do without hindrances. And it becomes rather shaky ground when we realize Kenobi also had disadvantages which for some reason you're still disputing the presence of.

That Maul's hindrances were highlighted(as were Kenobi's)by Feloni doesn't diminish Kenobi's hindrances.

Kenobi getting physically wrecked was focused on for several minuites by the episode, and feloni has confirmed Kenobi was mentally thrown off by maul's revival before getting banged up which would on;y hurt his already badly impaired mentality.

Hence why Maul's dun moch worked there.

They both had unfavorable circumstances, and Kenobi came out better. Maul may have improved as of sod, but Kenobi had all of season 5, dd, and then the outer rim sieges to grow.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Aug 15th, 2017 at 08:43 AM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2017 08:36 AM
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