|
 |
AncientPower
The Chosen One
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
|
>Canon
>'bullshit'
The delusions are that strong, are they?
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 04:04 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Azronger
Azronger Reborn
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
|
So to begin, we have the infamous Yooku scaling, the scourge of all Maul fans and Dooku haters, dictating the Count genuinely stood up to Yoda on Geonosis, and his power was such that the Grandmaster could not ragdoll his former student:
The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.
Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.
Fact File
This can then be extended to benefit Darth Vader, in the form of the oh-so-innovatively-named Yookuder scaling, given Vader's canonical superiority to his predecessor. So in essence, if Yoda (and by extension, RotS Sidious) can't ragdoll Dooku, he can't ragdoll Vader. Which means that Vader could probably hold his own against any being not more powerful than RotS Sidious, and defeat anyone whom the latter could dominate:
”Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.”
--Emperor Palpatine
Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
"My Empire, so perfect in vision, has at times proved infuriating in its implementation because of the sloth and stupidity of my underlings. Even Vader, my minor masterpiece, is often weak and indecisive. It is fortunate that I have an eternity to outlive his errors."
--Emperor Palpatine
Book of the Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.
Handbook 3: Dark Empire
Vader himself mused that he could have easily beaten Sidious in 18 BBY, far before his prime, and he has seen Sidious going all-out against Mace Windu both with lightsaber and Force abilities, personally, so it’s not borne of ignorance on Sidious’ powers.
"You killed her. That was good - it brought you to me."
You killed her. That was good. Vader was shocked at the grief and anger that roiled through him at his Master's words. He could easily have struck his Master down.
The Last of the Jedi: Reckoning
Then we have statements from Obi-Wan Kenobi and Beware the Sith, stating Vader was more powerful in A New Hope than he was as a Jedi and on Mustafar, where he is still a 9 on Gillard’s tiering system i.e. on the level of Yoda and Sidious, and just as strong as Sidious per George Lucas:
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
--Mace Windu
Revenge of the Sith
Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.
Labyrinth of Evil
This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.
He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
Revenge of the Sith
Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.
The Making of Revenge of the Sith
In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.
The Official Star Wars Website
"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi. The difference between an 8 and a 9 really is the dark side."
--Nick Gillard
Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark.
Dueling Jedi
He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.
--Nick Gillard
”But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.”
--George Lucas
Rolling Stone Magazine
Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.
Beware the Sith
”This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”
--Obi-Wan Kenobi
A New Hope
__________________
|
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 05:18 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Azronger
Azronger Reborn
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
|
Vader continued to grow even more after that, though, becoming “far more formidable”:
Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.
The Visual Dictionary
As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.
Force and Destiny
Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger.
The Story of Darth Vader
"My Master seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger."
--Mara Jade
Galactic Battlegrounds
Between Lord Vader and the Imperial Inquisitors (and a handful of independent Jedi Hunters), the dark side grew stronger and stronger.
The Dark Side Sourcebook
When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet.
Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope
The more powerful figures may often be defeated but not slain. They may flee, like Darth Vader after the destruction of the Death Star, to return more powerful on another day.
Gamer 5
Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
Insider 62
His actual peak he reached during the last two films of the original trilogy, as per statements from the Return of the Jedi novelization declaring Vader to be more powerful than he's ever been, and from Insider 62 stating Vader is at the height of his powers during the events of The Empire Strikes Back:
Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground... But he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
Return of the Jedi
In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.
Insider 62
Neither of these quotes are restricted to suited Vader, so Knightfall is fair game as he was a Sith Lord and had been dubbed "Darth Vader" even back then, and I believe you already know the implications of that. But for those who don't, I'll lay them here briefly: Anakin, at the start of Revenge of the Sith, had numerous statements declaring him as strong or stronger than Yoda (see above). On top of that, he was giving Dooku a harder time than Yoda was, indicating superiority:
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.
Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.
Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade.
A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back.
The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.
Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Attack of the Clones
Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan.
The Official Star Wars Fact File 34
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—and only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.
[…]
Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
Revenge of the Sith
__________________
|
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 05:20 PM |
|
|
| |
|
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
|
I guess Yoda and Dooku were evenly matched in their Force battle...that doesn't mean Yoda was going all out. He obviously wasn't given that he never initiates an attack against Dooku.
__________________
Join the new Star Wars vs. forum: Suspect Insight Forums (not url'd for spam prevention)
|
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 05:21 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Azronger
Azronger Reborn
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
|
After he goes into "zone" he pretty much stomps the Count:
This is the death of Count Dooku:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku and Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos. Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste—the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life—are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.
Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.
But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.
When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.
When with all the power that the dark side can draw fromthroughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.
His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win.
He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with hiswill and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.
He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.
And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.
Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.
Revenge of the Sith
He grows even more powerful than the zone form in his base form during the events of the novel:
"You've defeated Dooku," Palpatine said. "Capture Grievous and you will have dealt a wound from which the Separatists may never recover."
Anakin thought blankly: I could do it.
He had dreamed of capturing Grievous ever since Muunilinst-and now the general was close. So close Anakin could practically smell him… and Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced."
Revenge of the Sith
And then surpasses his already-stronger-than-zone base form with his Knightfall form, which is stated to have unparalleled Force powers:
When Padmé Amidala landed on Mustafar, Darth Vader ran to meet her. Full of his new powers, he urged her to join him and take over the galaxy.
The Official Star Wars Fact File 19
"You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?"
"Yes, my Master."
[…]
He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation.
Revenge of the Sith
Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.
Databank: Darth Vader
So to tie this all into a neat little package, here’s a condensed version:
Argument 1:
Premise 1: Vader states he could easily defeat Sidious in combat as of 18 BBY
Premise 2: Vader grew far, far more powerful after 18 BBY
Conclusion: RotJ Vader >>>> RotS Sidious
Argument 2:
Premise 1: Anakin’s base form at the start of RotS is more powerful than Yoda
Premise 2: Anakin’s zone form is more powerful than his base form
Premise 3: Anakin’s base form surpasses his zone form
Premise 4: Anakin’s Knightfall form is more powerful than his most powerful base form
Premise 5: RotJ Vader is more powerful than his Knightfall form
Conclusion: RotJ Vader > Knightfall Vader > peak base Anakin > zone Anakin > base Anakin > Yoda; RotJ Vader >>>> Yoda
Argument 3:
Premise 1: Mustafar Vader is as powerful as Sidious
Premise 2: Peak base Anakin is more powerful than Mustafar Vader due to the latter being emotionally held back
Premise 2: ANH Vader is more powerful than he was on Mustafar and when he was a Jedi
Premise 3: RotJ Vader is “far more formidable” than ANH Vader
Conclusion: RotJ Vader >> ANH Vader > peak base Anakin > Mustafar Vader = RotS Sidious; RotJ Vader >>>> RotS Sidious
Of course then there are other cool things for Vader too, such as being called a living embodiment of the dark side, which is an accolade I’ve only seen people on the levels of Plagueis, Vitiate and Palpatine receive; the Emperor thinking of him as a legitimate threat in Return of the Jedi; and being suggested as a candidate for the most powerful darksider along with Palpatine – the fact that he was even considered as a possibility speaks volumes. While they are somewhat superfluous and nondefinitive, they should still be taken into consideration:
Darth Vader became the epitome of the Emperor's New Order, the embodiment of the Dark Side.
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
Before Joruus C'baoth come out of his seclusion to threaten the New Republic, Luke Skywalker had to face perhaps the ultimate masters of the Dark Side, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine.
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side.
The Essential Guide to Characters
So there ya go. It may not definitively put him beyond Valkorion and the likes, depending on where you rank him, but I have him below Yoda and Plagueis, so Vader’s above him too for me. And to anyone who disagrees, well…
(please log in to view the image)
__________________
|
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 05:22 PM |
|
|
| |
|
The Ellimist
The Shadow
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States
|
ngl I disagree with a lot of this but it's pretty well thought out 
__________________
Join the new Star Wars vs. forum: Suspect Insight Forums (not url'd for spam prevention)
|
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 05:25 PM |
|
|
| |
|
Azronger
Azronger Reborn
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
|
Thanks bunches
__________________
|
|
Dec 23rd, 2017 05:27 PM |
|
|
| |
|
| All times are UTC. The time now is 06:57 AM. |
|
|
| |
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
Text-only version |
|
|
