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Toppo vs. Frieza!
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vansonbee
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Toppo vs. Frieza!

Fight#1 Frieza during ROF

Fight#2 True Golden Frieza

Who wins here?

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Old Post Aug 25th, 2017 02:29 AM
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carver9
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Toppo


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2017 02:48 AM
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Damborgson
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True Golden Frieza is equal to Goku Blue, Toppo got his butt kicked, Frieza wins.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2017 03:14 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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That's not what happened, like at all. Toppo wreaks havoc on Frieza.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2017 03:16 AM
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Damborgson
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Okay, let me hear your opinion on the matter.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2017 03:44 AM
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Inedian
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Frieza wins.

Old Post Aug 25th, 2017 07:33 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
Okay, let me hear your opinion on the matter.


Sorry I didn't catch this.

Basically, Toppo was suppressing himself against SSJB Goku, and still tanked his kamehameha with just a tear in his shirt. He then proceeds to power up immensely as Goku begins to power into Kaioken. At this point, it isn't really certain who's gonna win, as noted by Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, and even Goku himself. Not only that, but Belmod is apparently going to retire "any day now," and Toppo is next in line for that job.

Goku was more excited for Toppo than he was for Hit, and viewed Toppo as more of a rival, an equal. The idea that Toppo's absolute peak is "getting his butt kicked by SSJB" is a tad ridiculous. And by a tad, I mean extremely.

Toppo ~ SSJB KK Goku.


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Last edited by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ on Oct 16th, 2017 at 01:34 AM

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:32 AM
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cdtm
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thumb up

Good post, as any fool can plainly see.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
Toppo


rolling on floor laughing


If Freeza has an ace, he hasn't showed it yet.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:37 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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I'm assuming Frieza doesn't have an ace, given his utter (though well-hidden) fear of Jiren. Vegeta might, but as of right now, Toppo can manhandle anyone who's still in the ToP.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:40 AM
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Damborgson
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sorry I didn't catch this.

Basically, Toppo was suppressing himself against SSJB Goku, and still tanked his kamehameha with just a tear in his shirt. He then proceeds to power up immensely as Goku begins to power into Kaioken. At this point, it isn't really certain who's gonna win, as noted by Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, and even Goku himself. Not only that, but Belmod is apparently going to retire "any day now," and Toppo is next in line for that job.

Goku was more excited for Toppo than he was for Hit, and viewed Toppo as more of a rival, an equal. The idea that Toppo's absolute peak is "getting his butt kicked by SSJB" is a tad ridiculous. And by a tad, I mean extremely.

Toppo ~ SSJB KK Goku.


Those are some of the biggest assumptions I've ever seen.

Goku used Kaioken on Bergamo too, that doesn't mean that Bergamo was on his level. Toppo did indeed power up, but to assume that his power up is on the level of a ridiculously OP Kaio ken power up, is nonsense. What, because they both powered up and the crowd was surprised that means they're roughly equal? You do know what anime we're watching correct?

And I used that as my base because they both have comparable fights. At no point did I say that was his absolute peak. Trying to strawman is not dignified.

Also "any day now" for a creature like a god of destruction, could be the next 1000 years for all we know. That means absolutely nothing.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 03:22 AM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
Those are some of the biggest assumptions I've ever seen.

Goku used Kaioken on Bergamo too, that doesn't mean that Bergamo was on his level. Toppo did indeed power up, but to assume that his power up is on the level of a ridiculously OP Kaio ken power up, is nonsense. What, because they both powered up and the crowd was surprised that means they're roughly equal? You do know what anime we're watching correct?

And I used that as my base because they both have comparable fights. At no point did I say that was his absolute peak. Trying to strawman is not dignified.

Also "any day now" for a creature like a god of destruction, could be the next 1000 years for all we know. That means absolutely nothing.


erm

There's a huge difference between Goku's use of KK against Bergamo (I.e. To literally become so much more powerful than Bergamo that he can't hope to absorb the energy,) and against Toppo (because Goku is being legitimately challenged and wants to power up along with his foe). Hell, Goku explicitly noted that Toppo is much more of a challenge than Bergamo was, and the narrator drives home that Goku beat Bergamo with utter ease. He was going SSJB KK for a different reason against Toppo than against Bergamo.

You also do realize that Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, and Goku were all unsure of who would win the fight, right? Despite the fact that Toppo had literally just "got his butt kicked" (lmao) by SSJB? Toppo was very clearly holding back immensely, and Goku and Toppo both see each other as rivals/equals.

Comparable Fights? One is where Frieza is absolutely going all out, the other is with Toppo holding back immensely.

There's a thing called holistic intent, and regardless of how you view the fight evidence (which to me clearly points to Toppo having held back immensely against SSJB, hence why Goku wanted Toppo to show his "real" power, implying Toppo wasn't fighting seriously before,) there's still an overwhelming number of statements implying that SSJB KK Goku and Toppo are rough equals. If you want, you can give the edge to Goku there...

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: but that won't be saving Frieza.


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"I was lying! See? There's an Omniverse in the box. And that Omniverse died. But alot of the lives in it carried onto the new one. New broom--same handle."

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 03:43 AM
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Damborgson
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
erm

There's a huge difference between Goku's use of KK against Bergamo (I.e. To literally become so much more powerful than Bergamo that he can't hope to absorb the energy,) and against Toppo (because Goku is being legitimately challenged and wants to power up along with his foe). Hell, Goku explicitly noted that Toppo is much more of a challenge than Bergamo was, and the narrator drives home that Goku beat Bergamo with utter ease. He was going SSJB KK for a different reason against Toppo than against Bergamo.

You also do realize that Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, and Goku were all unsure of who would win the fight, right? Despite the fact that Toppo had literally just "got his butt kicked" (lmao) by SSJB? Toppo was very clearly holding back immensely, and Goku and Toppo both see each other as rivals/equals.

Comparable Fights? One is where Frieza is absolutely going all out, the other is with Toppo holding back immensely.

There's a thing called holistic intent, and regardless of how you view the fight evidence (which to me clearly points to Toppo having held back immensely against SSJB, hence why Goku wanted Toppo to show his "real" power, implying Toppo wasn't fighting seriously before,) there's still an overwhelming number of statements implying that SSJB KK Goku and Toppo are rough equals. If you want, you can give the edge to Goku there...

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: but that won't be saving Frieza.



erm

Except you used Goku going kaio-ken as an indication that Toppo was on that level. With no more proof than Beerus' eyes popping out. That's why it's not that different. Was Toppo more of a challenge? Obviously, but he doesn't automatically become Kaioken Goku's equal more or less.

Goku expressing interest in that fight, and the added suspense from the important figures in the show don't add anything but speculation to pretty clear logic. You're telling me Toppo gets the pass on being able to match Goku's kaioken because why? He powered up and everyone thought it was getting interesting? (lmao)

And Lol, only you can watch Toppo get about a donzen unanswered blows on him and be like "that's not a butt kicking lol" regardless of whether he had more power in the tank or not.

I can sum that last paragraph up as "You might disagree, but you're wrong" in which case, back at you. You made an assumption on a flimsy basis, and now you're reeling. Do you realize the sheer level of variability that SSJB Goku has gotten in regards to his showings? The fact is, when Goku went SSJB, he beat the crap out of Toppo. Toppo might have more in the tank, but Goku's tank, just from showings, is much much deeper [spoliers]not to mention according to logic[/spoilers]

He doesn't need to be saved, he'll win the fight. wink


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 04:48 AM
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NewGuy01
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^Truth.

Toppo would stomp if he went on a hardcore diet for 4 months and became Golden Toppo, though.

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 12:29 PM
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Estacado
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Toppo for now.

It would be cool to see Frieza kick his ass.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 04:05 PM
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Inedian
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
He doesn't need to be saved, he'll win the fight. wink


thumb up

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 04:14 PM
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Dark-Kenshin
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The only thing going for SSJB KK Goku = Toppo is Toppo's comment where he says that he doesn't know who would win if him and Goku fought. Toppo has not been established as conceited and appears to have enough credibility to make that kind of determination.

Even still, I'm 99.9% he will get beaten by someone not named Goku. The writers have a thought process that isn't along the lines of "Okay, Toppo, so no one besides Goku, Hit and Jiren is EVER allowed to beat him."

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 04:24 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
erm

Except you used Goku going kaio-ken as an indication that Toppo was on that level. With no more proof than Beerus' eyes popping out. That's why it's not that different. Was Toppo more of a challenge? Obviously, but he doesn't automatically become Kaioken Goku's equal more or less.


Alright, now let's look at the proof that I actually used:

1. Despite seeing a suppressed Toppo get beat down by SSJB, Daishinkan was uncertain of who was going to win the fight, despite Goku powering up even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

2. Toppo, despite facing SSJB and having his butt handed to him, was unsure whether or not he'd be able to beat Goku in the tournament, despite seeing Goku power up even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

3. Despite seeing Toppo get beaten down by SSJB, Beerus notes that Goku had a "close fight" with Toppo, despite Goku beginning to power up even further into Kaioken. This implies that Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

4. Vermod, despite seeing SSJB Goku beat down Toppo, still has to ask Toppo whether or not he thinks be can take down Goku, despite Goku powering even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

5. Goku, as he's powering up into Kaioken, asks Toppo to show him his "real" power. This implies that Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

6. This is a new piece of evidence: It's heavily implied that Toppo is beyond Dyspo, who was beating around SSJG Goku and moving too fast for him to react, and even managed to dodge SSJB despite being caught off-guard. Also bodied Hit until Hit adapted to Dyspo's speed.

7. Another new piece of evidence: The narrator himself states that neither Toppo nor Goku "would give an inch in their match." This implies that they are/were equals.


The idea that not only all of these characters were wrong, but actually so wrong that Toppo's full power is completely beneath regular SSJB Goku, seems like an enormous leap in logic. I don't even need to prove that Toppo is on par with, say, SSJB KKx10 Goku, I just need to prove there's enough evidence that at least heavily suggests Toppo is beyond regular SSJB.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
Goku expressing interest in that fight, and the added suspense from the important figures in the show don't add anything but speculation to pretty clear logic. You're telling me Toppo gets the pass on being able to match Goku's kaioken because why? He powered up and everyone thought it was getting interesting? (lmao)


Again, this begs the question: Why the hell would there be speculation if regular SSJB Goku is capable of defeating full-powered Toppo. Why would Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, Goku, and Vermod be uncertain of Goku's victory if regular SSJB Goku is > Toppo, much less the immensely powered up KKx10 (or even x20) version? The answer to me is pretty clear: Toppo was only starting to get serious when SSJB Goku ****ed up his outfit. This is supported by Toppo twice, Goku, Daishinkan, Beerus, and Vermod.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
And Lol, only you can watch Toppo get about a donzen unanswered blows on him and be like "that's not a butt kicking lol" regardless of whether he had more power in the tank or not.


That's fair, but in your very first post in this thread, you state the following:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
True Golden Frieza is equal to Goku Blue, Toppo got his butt kicked, Frieza wins.


This implies that Toppo getting his butt kicked is relevant regarding his inferiority to Frieza. It isn't.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
I can sum that last paragraph up as "You might disagree, but you're wrong" in which case, back at you. You made an assumption on a flimsy basis, and now you're reeling. Do you realize the sheer level of variability that SSJB Goku has gotten in regards to his showings? The fact is, when Goku went SSJB, he beat the crap out of Toppo. Toppo might have more in the tank, but Goku's tank, just from showings, is much much deeper [spoliers]not to mention according to logic[/spoilers]


Look, I consider you to be one of the sharper members around these parts, and I tend to agree with you on most things. But really? I'm reeling? 6 or 7 different pieces of evidence is a flimsy basis? And yes, even if you disagree on the events of the fight itself, there's at least 6 different statements that heavily imply Toppo is at least close to Goku. That wouldn't be the case if regular SSJB Goku was capable of housing him.

Sure, Goku has alot of variability, but you don't have 6 different statements saying "Krillin is on par with SSJB! Android 17 is on par with SSJB! Kale is far beyond SSJB!"

And, here's the thing: Even if Goku's tank is deeper, (i.e. if Goku's KK x10 and KKx20 are beyond Toppo's immense powerup), that doesn't matter in terms of Frieza. Because Frieza at best is on par with regular SSJB Goku.


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Last edited by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ on Oct 16th, 2017 at 10:59 PM

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 10:51 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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I sense your presence, Damborgson. Continue the response. Conflict fuels me. smile


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Old Post Yesterday 01:55 AM
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Dark-Kenshin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I sense your presence, Damborgson. Continue the response. Conflict fuels me. smile
How about we just wait until Toppo fights? Your reasoning is sound, but this is the same show that had unfused Goku dealing damage to Merged Zamasu despite getting his ass handed (alongside Vegeta) to him by Black Goku one episode earlier. For the writers, Power levels have and do change on the drop of dime and something tells me that Goku is not the one who is gonna take down Toppo.

Last edited by Dark-Kenshin on Yesterday at 02:10 AM

Old Post Yesterday 02:07 AM
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Damborgson
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Alright, now let's look at the proof that I actually used:

1. Despite seeing a suppressed Toppo get beat down by SSJB, Daishinkan was uncertain of who was going to win the fight, despite Goku powering up even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

2. Toppo, despite facing SSJB and having his butt handed to him, was unsure whether or not he'd be able to beat Goku in the tournament, despite seeing Goku power up even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

3. Despite seeing Toppo get beaten down by SSJB, Beerus notes that Goku had a "close fight" with Toppo, despite Goku beginning to power up even further into Kaioken. This implies that Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

4. Vermod, despite seeing SSJB Goku beat down Toppo, still has to ask Toppo whether or not he thinks be can take down Goku, despite Goku powering even further into Kaioken. This implies Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

5. Goku, as he's powering up into Kaioken, asks Toppo to show him his "real" power. This implies that Toppo was holding back immensely against SSJB.

6. This is a new piece of evidence: It's heavily implied that Toppo is beyond Dyspo, who was beating around SSJG Goku and moving too fast for him to react, and even managed to dodge SSJB despite being caught off-guard. Also bodied Hit until Hit adapted to Dyspo's speed.

7. Another new piece of evidence: The narrator himself states that neither Toppo nor Goku "would give an inch in their match." This implies that they are/were equals.


The idea that not only all of these characters were wrong, but actually so wrong that Toppo's full power is completely beneath regular SSJB Goku, seems like an enormous leap in logic. I don't even need to prove that Toppo is on par with, say, SSJB KKx10 Goku, I just need to prove there's enough evidence that at least heavily suggests Toppo is beyond regular SSJB.



Again, this begs the question: Why the hell would there be speculation if regular SSJB Goku is capable of defeating full-powered Toppo. Why would Daishinkan, Toppo, Beerus, Goku, and Vermod be uncertain of Goku's victory if regular SSJB Goku is > Toppo, much less the immensely powered up KKx10 (or even x20) version? The answer to me is pretty clear: Toppo was only starting to get serious when SSJB Goku ****ed up his outfit. This is supported by Toppo twice, Goku, Daishinkan, Beerus, and Vermod.



That's fair, but in your very first post in this thread, you state the following:



This implies that Toppo getting his butt kicked is relevant regarding his inferiority to Frieza. It isn't.



Look, I consider you to be one of the sharper members around these parts, and I tend to agree with you on most things. But really? I'm reeling? 6 or 7 different pieces of evidence is a flimsy basis? And yes, even if you disagree on the events of the fight itself, there's at least 6 different statements that heavily imply Toppo is at least close to Goku. That wouldn't be the case if regular SSJB Goku was capable of housing him.

Sure, Goku has alot of variability, but you don't have 6 different statements saying "Krillin is on par with SSJB! Android 17 is on par with SSJB! Kale is far beyond SSJB!"

And, here's the thing: Even if Goku's tank is deeper, (i.e. if Goku's KK x10 and KKx20 are beyond Toppo's immense powerup), that doesn't matter in terms of Frieza. Because Frieza at best is on par with regular SSJB Goku.



1. Easily dismissed as plot. Toppo has no showings to even imply that he's on the level of being able to multiply his power by a factor of 10 to match Goku. Why on Earth would be he holding back immensely against a person who he despised? Even blamed for the whole situation (somewhat rightly so, but that's besides the point). Did he have another level he could kick it up to? Of course, as most characters do. But he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt to such an extent because Grand Priest, regardless of his status, showed interest in the fight.

2. How is that proof? Unless Goku immediately went to 100% pushing Kaioken x10, Toppo had no basis to even believe that. He was going to get his butt kicked.

3. Not necessarily. He had a close fight, because he was having a close fight. Until Goku put on the power, Toppo was beating the crap out of Goku. Almost tore off an arm, that's just as well a reason for why Beerus said that.

4. See, how does that imply ANYTHING? He's gathering his fighters feelings on a match, which he shouldn't need to do were he aware of their levels.

5. That implies he wasn't giving 100% as does every character in the history of dragon ball at the beginning of a fight. The extent to which that matters remains to be seen.

6. I don't understand the connection. Dyspo is fast, that's his schtick. He was so fast he made fast guys seem slow. Yet despite that, both Goku and Hit got the better of him. Goku, in a weaker form no less.

7. That implies they were having a competitive fight.

None of that necessarily heavily suggests anything of the sort, regardless of how many times you bold it. It could just as easily mean that Toppo was enough of a challenge that Goku felt he could experiment with higher power.

And that's not an argument that I ever made, strawmen should be beneath you. What I'm saying is that character statements while impressive and all, do not make up for the large gap of power you are trying to push onto Toppo to match Kaioken Goku. Even one Kaioken doubles Goku's power, how does the crew being like "dang I wonder who's gonna win", mean he gets the benefit of the doubt in such absurd levels of power?

And you know what, if they have to ask, they don't know the fighters that well either. It doesn't mean "oh well since they're questioning it, it must mean they're equals" and you're talking about leaps in logic lol. To reach a conclusion along those lines you'd at the least need someone of reputable characters saying something akin to "their strength is equal, even considering both are holding back" Similar to what Frieza said when he violated holding back Goku with 50% of his power.

They didn't need statements, they had showings, which overrule statements no matter how illustrious they might be. Martian Manhunter is not as strong as Superman no matter how sure of it he is. And who knows MMH better than himself?

And yes, I do with you as well thumb up But our disagreement seems to be stemming from two major points:

1. You said that me saying Frieza beats Toppo because he did better against SSJB Goku is not indicative of how a fight between the two would go.

And I understand your point and admit that that alone is not enough to prove that Frieza beats him, but Frieza has other ways to end the match. He's a ruthless and sadistic animal with a finger gun capable of poking holes in similarly powered opponents.

2. I do not agree that just because the show in its typical manner expresses the shocked reactions of the ringside fighters, that that means that Toppo can be considered as powerful as you consider him. He was indeed restraining some of his power, but how much do you honestly think he restrained against someone he despises? And wanted to beat down decisively? Not as much as you'd like to be so.

Does Toppo beat Frieza? I don't think he does. Could be he beat Frieza? Sure. Just not more than vice versa based on what I've seen of him.


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