No, I argue for Rebels Maul because of a canonical quote that indicates Maul is better when you look at the context and the question of the quote, because Rebels Maul is in the range of a force user whose force feats absolutely curbstomp SOD Maul's, and because Maul has had more than a decade to grow in power, during which he spent most of his time actively doing sh!t like troubling the empire, searching for artifacts, searching for holocrons, and searching for an old rival.
I bring up hatred making force users more powerful as a counter to the claim that Maul's hatred made him weaker as a combatant.
Well, it does actually in his fight vs Luke, but that wouldn't apply to literally any moment before Luke bringing any light inside of Vader. Which leaves plenty of time post-rebels for Vader to grow.
Additionally I'd argue Vader is at his absolute strongest when he fully embraces the lightside out of love for his son and hence is able to perform his most impressive feat, tanking the lightning, while weakened, of the most powerful sith lord in history. But that's just conjecture
The objective quotes saying Luke fought equally with Vader don't negate the context that allowed it to happen.
Vader is only matched/edged by Luke when Luke is drawing on the darkside:
I'm also assuming you're referencing the quote from the ROTJ novelization that states Vader tried to kill Luke.
Lets take another look at it:
The underlined punctuation shows Vader hesitating to make up his mind that he wanted to kill Luke, which means he wasn't trying to kill Luke when they were fighting. Note: At this point the duel is effectively over disregarding when Luke got enraged.
Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.
--Insider #62: Fightsaber
The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.
--The Official Star Wars Fact File #111
Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.
--The Official Star Wars Fact File #111
On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor's throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.
--Return of the Jedi Junior Novelization
The young Jedi has grown in the interim... and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.
--Return of the Jedi comic
Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.
--Return of the Jedi script
No, I'm refering to when Vader quite literally shat his armored pants because of Luke:
For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
--Return of the Jedi
__________________
"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
The no circumstances needed is stated where exactly?
Just because you have a quote noting an outcome doesn't serve as a basis to disregard how and why such an outcome was achieved.
Otherwise it would be fair game to use Maul and Oppress wielding too much raw power for Kenobi and Ventress despite the context allowing the two to win.
Or to claim that since Vader "killed" Sidious before he died, he equals Sidious.
Luke does end up proving he can match/beat Vader, but only because he was drawing on the dark side and Vader was conflicted.
ROTJ Luke is not equal to Vader in legends, and Luke outright admits as much. Oversimplifying the fight doesn't serve as a solid reason to force a contradiction where there is none.
Where does it state rage amp was needed? It flat out says Luke is a match for Vader. I provided like 7 sources and not one of them mentioned any sort of amp, interesting...You think because he got a rage amp mid fight he wasn't a match for Vader beforehand?
Luke was also said to be a challange for ESB Vader and then he grew significantly more powerful up to RotJ.
Also Luke thinks Ben > Sidious, so I wouldn't take him too seriously.
__________________
"You presume limits to our double standards. There are none." - Vitidiots
Luke outright defeated him, Ahsoka did less well than Obi Wan did.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Because we have multiple indications that Vader and Luke are not equals.
We have Luke's own admission:
We have Vader's inferior calling Luke sh!t:
We have Vader's inferior proving Luke's sh!t:
Prior to Luke fighting more aggressively, Vader is doing well enough against Luke that he's fcking day dreaming:
And we later learn Vader's been "tolerating" Luke this entire time:
Not to mention that the portion that was underlined was a significant portion of the fight. Hence, if Luke is only matching Vader in quotes you say are referring to the whole of the fight, this would indicate without the portion in question, Luke was losing.
Are you trying to argue that if one quote from a character is false, that means a totally unrelated and uncontradicted quote is also wrong?
You realize that this logic can be used to invalidate quotes by virtually any major character? Kenobi thought himself to be inferior to someone who almost got their heart crushed by an injured Ventress, does this now render Kenobi's admission Anakin was better than him, or the hype he gives Fisto invalid?
Dooku thought that he was greater than Yoda. Does this now mean Dooku recognizing Kenobi and Anakin as the best masters of their forms he's ever met invalid? Does this mean Dooku's assertion that Grevious is >Ventress is pointless?
That someone get's something wrong does not prove they will get everything wrong.
Luke's assertion remains uncontradicted when we consider the context at play and hence is valid for use. Not to mention that the quotes suggests that the holistic intent here is that an unconflicted Vader would demolish Luke.
Regardless this isn't even needed. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that until Luke was drawing on the darkside, he was not fighting Vader as an equal.
The movie disagrees on that. When Luke says "I will not fight you Father" and Vader replies "You are unwise to lower your defences", they were still fighting as equals. In fact Luke seemed to be overpowering Vader in their blade lock.
Edit- Of course that's all Sabers only. I have no idea about the lack of TK. If that was because Vader couldn't overpower him in TK, or if it was because Vader was completely holding back in that department.
But against Ashoka, I'd go with the guy who (massively pre-prime) shook a Star Destroyer without even noticing what he did.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 10:31 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Ahsoka was above Luke in Canon, since it seems like the jury is still out regarding Luke's performance against Vader in RotJ, and Luke's standing in general during that time period, frankly. In Legends though, I believe the consensus more lies with Luke actually being equal to Vader, so I'd say Legends Luke would defeat Ahsoka.
Sep 3rd, 2017 05:35 PM
