1. Yeah, and I'm not sure I'm convinced on the validity or usefulness of the game engine descriptions or whatever they're called. Do you have conclusive evidence on their validity?
2. Well, Nihilus shits on Traya, and I have him below Vader, was my point.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Dunno. KOTOR 2 in general is just weird for me atm. Nihilus absolutely has far better feats than Vader, don't get me wrong. KOTOR 2 is just a very upscaled medium in general (I.e. In the context of KOTOR 2, Darth Revan is a literal God, yet even far more powerful incarnations of Revan aren't packing the level of feats that Nihilus has).
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Mostly gut-feeling, especially in relation to combat. Dude literally can't even control his own power. He killed himself in the 2nd half of his fight against Meetra by constantly trying to drain her/them.
Then there's Traya's comparison between Nihilus and Revan, (in the sense that Revan was the heart of the force, the absolute pinnacle of her students, way beyond the paygrade of Meetra, etc).
As we see with TFU and TFU 2, Vader is also capable of absolutely ridiculous/absurd feats a ways before his prime, and unlike Nihilus, he has full control/mastery of his power. And also isn't too shabby a swordsman, either. Also happens to be an absolute tank.
If you want to argue Nihilus just loldrains Vader, that's fine. I just find the former to be rather pathetic, honestly.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
No, that's him literally not being able to control his hunger. Dude tries to drain Meetra in the opening cutscene, knows it fails, and does it repeatedly in the 2nd half of the fight anyways.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
That wasn't Drain. It was a completely different Force power known as Dark Healing - hence, there isn't any indication that he was getting weaker, but there was plenty of indication that he was getting (somewhat) stronger, as evidenced by how he self-heals every time he does it.
She makes no direct comparison between the two other than that Revan was the best of her students, which is inherently flawed, especially coming from one such as her.
In any case, though, she definitely portrays Nihilus as far, far out of anyone's league bar the Ancient Sith; even going so far as to imply that Surik's basically the only one in the galaxy capable of beating him. Surik says as much when talking to him aboard the Ravager, anyway.
The same is true for Nihilus, and the caliber of what he does a ways before his prime outclasses whatever Vader could ever hope to do - even at his prime - by a mile.
Same can be said for Nihilus, as well. His contention with Surik and co. aboard the Ravager while mere inches away from death gives us a pretty good indication of where he stands as a combatant.
Fair enough, but that doesn't really change Traya's statement that Nihilus has no control over his power. Dude's a mindless slave, whose servants can eventually reach his level of power.
I mean sure, but she literally claims Revan to be the personification of power, like staring into the heart of the force, (not to be taken literally, obviously, but the point is there). There's numerous other examples throughout the game of Revan's deification, (then there's the Revan Novel, kek).
Yep, Traya holds Nihilus as Ancient Sith level at best, and given how SF Malak compares to the Ancient Sith, things aren't going so well for the Lord of Hunger on that front.
...
The point is that based on the nature of KOTOR 2 and how Nihilus is implied to stack up with other powerhouses, his feats can't really be the only way we measure his strength.
Lol. Competing with Surik and co. in a contest where we have absolutely no indication to what extent he used sabers or force abilities, (and, knowing Nihilus, he presumably used more of the latter,) isn't something outside the realm of RODV Vader.
No, he doesn't. Dude literally has 2 force abilities.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
The only real way someone can claim KotOR II is a 'very upscaled medium in general' is through a comparison between Vitiate and Revan, that is inherently biased towards Vitiate. It's pretty easy to debunk, but I'll give you the short version as to why I don't buy it.
The first is your premise that Revan is massively hyped in KotOR II. When you remove opinions that truly cannot fathom high-tier force users (like Canderous and other non force sensitives), the strongest source of hype comes from Traya. Yes, she calls looking at Revan akin to looking into the 'heart of the force', but the assertion you're making that this applies to Mando!Revan's actualised power is massively flawed. Traya is one of the greatest Dark Sight practitioners in the mythos, to assume she could only sense the actualised power of a force user is ludicrous. If she was talking about Force Potential, which she evidently would be, then his sequential 'power growths' (ie becoming Revan Reborn, The Foundry, and then supposedly his resurrection) are irrelevant. A Prime Revan would be the force of which she speaks. Therefore to suggest that a 'far stronger' Revan competing with Vitiate shows Vitiate must be leagues above the Revan Traya speaks of, is flawed, and a comparison can't really be drawn between Traya/The Exile and Mando!Revan's actual force showings and potential.
You seem to have forgotten previous discussions on this topic, too, so I feel I should respond to this:
As I have mentioned, her respect of Revan is likely encompassing his entire character arc. Furthermore, you use three hugely fallible quotes to back up Traya placing Revan leagues above Nihilus. Firstly, she says that Revan was like looking at the heart of the Force, but she claims the Exile (and Nihilus by extension) are like looking at the death of the Force. It is evident she sees Revan and Nihilus as having completely different commands of the Force. Backing this notion up is her assertion that his power is unimaginable:
“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."
It is fairly self explanatory that Nihilus doesn't command his own Force Power, but that he is reliant on what he has consumed recently or is around him to perform exceptional feats, otherwise taking him down would not have been possible at all. Using one of Traya's statements to rank him and ignoring others then is to essentially believe Nihilus has a 'firm' placement at all, which I think is completely inarguably false.
As a side note, Traya speaking of Revan being her greatest student has nothing to do with his force potential, and more to do with his way of being. If it was to do with Force Potential, you'd have to accept that KotOR II Exile > Revan, as she proclaims the Exile her greatest student at the Trayus Core.
Essentially, what I'm trying to get across to you is that yes, there is a greater saturation of powerful Force Users in the Kotor II era than many other eras, that is the product of one of the strongest overall eras in history being whittled down by war with only the strongest surviving. To dismiss feats because of this is ludicrous, even if you feel the era is stronger than it deserves. The attempts to justify this dismissal are often flawed and half constructed, and ignore a plethora of points that prove the power people argue these individuals have is valid. Traya has some of the greatest Dark Healing, Foresight, Dark Sight, Shatterpoint, Drain and Telekinetic mastery that we've seen from many Sith Lords. The fact the game engine doesn't allow for Alter sphere abilities on a grand scale (telekinesis on objects) doesn't warrant for lowballing. Sion's mere existence is another possible point of comparison that is hard to dismiss.
I just don't see why attempting to ram an unplaceable character beneath a pre-prime character on the basis of a couple out-of-context and fallible quotes is considered a valid form of scaling. I'm not attempting to lowball Revan, or place Nihilus above him, or anything of the sort, I just think your convoluted attempts at scaling the era really don't stack up. If you can't do better, you just need to accept the feats you see.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Honestly, Nihilus' power in battles should literally always change depending on his starvation. To say, just Nihilus vs X character has always seemed flawed to me. Nihilus right after Katar and Nihi who couldnt manage to find decent food for a while should be performing quite differently in combat. However, I think there is a limit to the power he can hold at a time, which imo shoudln't be higher than SWTOR Vitiate's power, or maybe even Novel Vitty.
The issue here is that outside of the game, that distinction doesn't actually mean anything. These powers are targeted at a traditional "HP and MP" system, whereas in the lore, life energy and the force are the same thing. That's why Bane's force reserves were replenished by the victims of his Death Field.
From a story standpoint, the idea of Nihilus even being as powerful as Vitiate is pretty ridiculous. The triamuvate as a collective were portrayed as an insignificant threat compared to the true sith empire, who in turn were completely overshadowed by their emperor. Nihilus is even recognized in SWTOR, but not in such a light that would imply he was ever the kind of threat to the galaxy that Vitiate was.
Last edited by NewGuy01 on Sep 15th, 2017 at 04:55 PM
Well, I meant strictly in power. No matter how strong though, Nihilus is massively limited by his semi-agency, inability to maintain power over time, and lack of high tier knowledge/mastery. I am aware that you can shit on Nihilus and KOTOR really easily via SWTOR, but I don't think Nihilus becoming novel Vitty level in power for a short while after eating planets necessarily means that he is Novel Vititae's near equal, just like it doesn't mean that he is as dangerous to the galaxy as Vitiate is.
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
That doesn't stand true at all though, seeing as Nihilus was the exception to the rule when you consider his hype as a threat matched that of the Sith Empire. One could (and should) argue that the reason he wasn't as much of a threat (if that's even correct) was because he had an antithesis, someone essentially destined to destroy him. Traya herself states he's already dead, it's merely a question of how many he kills before he falls.
The Emperor wouldn't have such a weak spot, so would be a greater threat even with the same level of power.
PS: He's recognised in SWTOR as a 'being of pure dark side power', who 'devoured worlds' and anyone in his presence. Given Vitiate's greatest threat was devouring worlds, I'd love to see how on earth you came to that conclusion.
__________________ "i admire u choose cersei as ur avi sel. at least u know that ur one sick *****, i can respect that" - Inturpid.
Are you really sure you want me to use Act III HoT?
Sep 15th, 2017 01:24 AM
