For real, though: who says those 50 years of power growth were negligible? Kun surpassed all the ancient Sith in 1. And Vitiate had an empire that'd just bend over backwards for him.
__________________ Rebel by doing what gives you peace.
The answer is obviously Azronger, the same person who thought the Kun > any other Sith quote should be applied to Vitiate to begin with (when the character was only created after the quote's publication).
__________________ Rebel by doing what gives you peace.
He evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander, his most powerful opponent.
- Knights of the Eternal Throne Official Profiles: Valkorion
The Outlander was a veteran of the Great Galactic War:
You are the Outlander, a veteran of the Great Galactic War and the commander of a powerful team of hand-picked allies.
- Knights of the Eternal Throne Official Profiles: The Outlander
It is already established that Barsen'thor was instrumental in the defeat of Children of the Emperor and Hero of Tython was instrumental in the defeat of Emperor himself, during the Great Galactic War. Later, one of them (Hero of Tython presumably) played a major role in stopping Revan on Yavin IV.
Conversely, Arcann was also a dominating presence on the battlefield and was instrumental in reversing the gains of the Jedi Oder. In single combat, he defeated any Jedi and/or Sith who crossed his path and even dominated the Outlander - greatest of them all.
"My son is too strong. You need my power. Only together can we strike him down."
Fate of the Outlander upon refusal to accept Valkorion's assistance:
Even though Arcann and Revan are not directly compared in the lore, nothing suggests that Arcann is relatively inferior in raw power. In-fact, probability of opposite is high.
My point was in regards to the techniques employed for defense against similar attacks in both cases. Revan received extensive training in the ways of the Jedi and employed Tutaminis to stop Vitiate's FLS but it didn't work. Conversely, Arcann's command of the Force is implied to be superior to that of any Jedi and/or Sith and he employed a different technique to stop Valkorion's FLS, with success.
I just don't see the possibility of Valkorion's FLS to be lacking in potency in comparison to his FLS that he employed against Revan centuries ago. In-fact, Valkorion's FLS caused extensive collateral damage which implies greater intensity. I credit Arcann's knowledge of relevant techniques that provided him the upper hand over Revan in his shoes.
I do not recall identification of any technique employed in this assault so far; it could be a potent wave of Dark Side energy or some other kind of Sith Sorcery.
This assault felled all members of the Dark Council with the exception of Darth Lokess; she was knocked unconscious, but imprisoned and tortured to death later.
So?
The Outlander and his allies were busy exploring a Starship named Gravestone earlier; they had rest during this time.
We are comparing two AoE attacks of Emperor in the context of potency; one from Vitiate against a rebellious Dark Council; and the other from Valkorion against a large contingent of Knights of Zakuul and droids. In both cases, Emperor floored his enemies. Your argument is that the attack against the Dark Council is more potent but my counterargument is that this cannot be established, specially in the light of the fact that Darth Lokess survived, albeit unconscious.
The contingent [in question] here could be a match for that rebellious Dark Council in the battlefield, depending upon its size, because it came close to overwhelming the Outlander, Lana Beniko and Senya at its visible strength and reinforcements were expected. Please keep in mind that Knights of Zakuul are every bit as good as well-trained Jedi or even better on average.
However, no matter the odds, Valkorion is laughably above them all.
Valkorion also needed a stronger body this time in order to utilize it as his Voice, he risked killing a lesser Voice otherwise. This was not the case with his earlier Voices during his tenure as Emperor of the Sith.
See above.
I don't think that Valkorion can be deemed [massively] weakened as a spirit; weakened nonetheless. However, even as a weakened spirit, Valkorion was capable of mass destruction, and more powerful than any living being in history.
At his core, Emperor is noted to be:
A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.
- Taken from Codex Entry: The Fall of Valkorion
Emphasis mine. Valkorion was still a being of unfathomable power when he assaulted Arcann on Asylum. It is impossible to say where he stood in his own [range of] strength at this point but judging from the fact that he needed a stronger Voice, I would place him above Vitiate as in Revan.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 10th, 2017 at 06:41 PM
Vitiate certainly existed at the time but he is not accounted for in the assessments of Exar Kun because Vitiate was a concealed threat. Don't you get it?
Because Vitiate was not compared to Exar Kun in the novel (i.e. author felt no need), but Vitiate's hype was considerable in Revan nonetheless:
The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.
- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
---
Under the guidance of the Emperor—the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years—they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors.
- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
---
Vitiate's extraordinary strength is apparent from the fact that he subdued the battle-hardened duo in Revan and Malak without much of a fight when they met for the first time, individuals who were already revered as the best of the Order at the time.
Another indication is in the fact that Vitiate stood a good chance at destroying the trio of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge by himself, reinforced by the observation that he eliminated 9 members of the Dark Council some hours earlier. In-fact, Revan noted that Vitiate was capable of mass destruction at this point.
---
When Vitiate was compared to other characters who had co-existed with him and earlier [for the first time in the relevant book in 2012], he was clearly established as their superior in power.
Since Vitiate's story have been advanced in phases over a span of years, you are trying to take advantage of gaps in-between which doesn't work.
See above.
The author in question is relevant because he has his share of contribution to the lore of Star Wars in regards to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma and he pointed out that Vitiate is logically exempt from the assessment of strength of these two characters.
Your argument is like this:-
1. Petronas Towers were identified as the tallest buildings in the world in the Guinness Book of Records for the duration 1998 - 2004.
2. Construction work on Burj Khalifa had begun in 2004, and it was not comparable in height yet.
Does it make sense?
We compare the size of two structures when both are ready, not when one of them is under preparation and the other is finished; such a comparison is premature and pointless.
Similar case here.
Vitiate was an [unknown] character back in 2008; his powers and relative position in the lore were established in 2012.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 10th, 2017 at 07:31 PM
Just assuming the Outlander is the HoT to help your argument isn't valid. And half the shit about "needing a stronger Voice," is just as true as the last time you said it. Not at all.
It is not my fault if you failed to grasp the purpose of Vitiate latching onto the Outlander and tinkering with the latter's Force-sensitivity subsequently in order to convert the Outlander into his Voice when he was strong enough. This was the plan all along.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 10th, 2017 at 07:42 PM
He literally tells you why he did it. He needed Vaylin's "spirit" to take over the Outlander's mind, a plan which didn't even succeed. I don't really give a shit about your opinion on the matter, especially when compared to statements from Valkorion himself. He was not planning to turn the Outlander into a Voice. He was going to "hollow" out his/her mind and take their body, obviously not the same thing as a Voice because a Voice can exist at the same time as whatever body he's using, Valkorion existing before even the Revan novel. How about instead of waxing yourself philosophical, you "educate yourself on the ground realities," of the subject you're speaking on.
Scourge's vision essentially proves it's the Outlander. A Jedi wearing the HoT's face strikes down the Emperor, "takes a crown from his head," and "wields his power," absolutely referring to the throne and the fleet/empire. Kek.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Excuse me? What was the point of Valkorion tinkering with the Force-sensitivity of the Outlander [apparent in Chapter 12 of Knights of the Fallen Empire]?
Secondly, in Chapter 9 of Knights of the Eternal Throne:-
"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power...worthy of preserving my spirit." (Valkorion)
"Now I take your body as your own, and rule once more as the Immortal Emperor." (Valkorion)
Struggle to convert the Outlander into a Voice ensued next for which hollowing out his mind was necessary.
The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor.
- Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Vaylin was a threat and had to be removed. Doesn't make sense to resurrect her.
Take your own advice before you try to educate me on the ground realities of this subject, my friend.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 10th, 2017 at 08:08 PM
Unless you're retarded, which I guess is a distinct possibility, it´s obvious why. The Outlander needs to also kill Arcann, who doesn't have conditioning to save you. Regardless, he tells you in that same chapter you're quoting that he tried to take your body and that the Outlander resisted. Emphasis mine. This being a good five years and a month before Chapter 12 of KotFE.
I don't know why you're spamming irrelevant quotes that do not change a thing that I said. If the Outlander was meant to be a Voice, he would not have tried to body hop. A Voice obviously doesn't hold his actual spirit, whereas Valkorion did, and has for "many centuries." Either way, I love how you're trying to ignore the primary source for a glorified codex entry. Must be embarassing, being a Vitishit fanboy and having to face his pathetic short comings.
Most powerful Opponent, aka in present tense, Revan is dead, thus he cannot apply to it. If it said 'ever' or all time, then it would be a different case.
So? Revan was a veteran of two galactic wars, ultimately means nothing, Satele is a veteran of the GGW, same with literally all the Jedi council/Dark council/any solider worth their weight, ain't a testament to power.
And? it proves nothing, they helped play a role in defeating Vitiate. And Revan absolutely dominated the heck out of any single one of them, in SoR events.
Arcann dominating on the field means nothing, when he couldn't fully dominate the outlander first confrontation, meaning he couldn't ragdoll the outlander, who is far inferior to Revan. The Very best of the Sith and Jedi, were completely dominated/Ragdolled by Revan. Arcann doesn't have a chance in repeating Revan's feats on Yavin.
Outlander needs some of Valkorians energy so?
Any Jedi/Sith "alive" thus doesn't apply to Revan, as no Jedi or Sith come close to Revan yet. Cool Arcann managed to apply a Barrier Technique, which diverted the majorty of Valks power, and? Its not comparable to using tutaminis in which one absorbs all the power.
Potency, do I have to repeat myself, Novel Vitiate lightning should be able to already dominate Force barriers capable of resisting, Massive Tk feats.(Moving space ships/ etc), which are far more impressive than his lightning.
The point is wiping out 10 dark council members within a matter of moments is far more impressive, wiping average knights/droids. You know the struggles of those sith and how they got there.
Before they had to cleave there way out and fight off waves of sky troopers/Knights, waiting for Senya to arrive, only for more appear. Nah, they had been fightning awhile.
Maybe Vitiate has a bit more control when it comes to killing, he purposely kept her alive, because i'm pretty sure she was one of the ring leaders. either that or she was strong enough to survive it. The point is 10 Of the galaxies strongest sith fell in a flash, without time to move far. A meetra tier opponent can cleve her way through an academy full of sith assassins.
I'm not denying Valkorian grew in strength with his physical form. I'm saying Knowledge doesn't equal Power, Novel Vitiate could probably do the same, with the correct knowledge.
He needed a strengthen body to hold is spirit and? why not Vaylin? why not Arcann? all are above/equal HoT and capable.
So? Novel Vitiate was capable of doing a Ziost, as stated by Revan. Nihilus has done similar/Thon has matched Planet Razing energies. Who is weaker than Kotor Revan. And the Fact remains Valkorian with Body went from casually knocking out Arcann to, having to put a fair bit of effort into it, He lost a Ton of power, Vitiate still technically had Valkorian at the time anyway.
That quote is in past tense, meaning it applies to Vitiate of his early forms, meaning he has regarded to have unfathomable power during Novel Revan.
I'm sorry what? Valkorian tends to be stronger with a body than without, so it can't really scale that way.
Complete load of crap. Either you were drunk while typing this nonsense or you need some introspection.
Senya informed Arcann that Valkorion is attempting to takeover the Outlander but the latter is resisting, as in Chapter 9. Valkorion did not attempt to takeover the Outlander earlier because the latter was not strong enough to handle his power.
I don't know why you are even bothering to comment on matters that you failed to grasp. You need to revisit your drinking habits.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 11th, 2017 at 04:27 AM
Read this response in full before you respond. Piecing the bits of a response together is useful in capturing the essence of an argument; individual bits are in accordance with the flow of discussion but do not complete the picture on their own.
1/2
We saw Revan unleashing a wave of Dark Side energy that swept his opponents of their feet and sent them crashing into nearby structures, in a setting that was tremendously strong in the Dark Side to begin with. Besides this instance, what concrete evidence can you provide for your claim that Revan was ragdolling his opponents around? We see a Strike Team confronting Revan and succeeding in stopping him without a single casualty. In-fact, Revan was assaulted in similar fashion on a Rakatan structure (earlier) and it cemented his internal fracture. In contrast, Valkorion literally humiliated any Strike Team with his powers that crossed his path but Arcann managed to bend his FLS around. Sorry my friend but evidence is strong with Arcann, not Revan.
Revan and Arcann - both were strong enough to dominate the Outlander in single combat but Revan doesn't have much to showcase in this respect unfortunately. Conversely, Arcann has solid demonstrations of dominating the Outlander:-
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You can clearly see Arcann ragdolling the Outlander (or close) in the aforementioned instances.
Heck, look at this:
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Arcann was able to affect Valyin with his power while on the brink of death.
- and his remarkable defense against Valkorion's FLS* on top.
*Same FLS would have floored the Strike Team that confronted Revan on Yavin IV actually.
I clearly see the possibility of Arcann replicating Revan's showings on Yavin IV and then some because he could draw power from that setting much like Revan.
Revan's technique utterly backfired on its wielder in Arcann's shoes; attempting to absorb Emperor's power is like attempting suicide. Arcann pioneered a better method to counter Valkorion's power and his technique worked, which in turn is a testament to Arcann's incredible raw power as well as ingenuity.
Revan's technique is remarkable in its own right but how can be it be deemed superior to that of Arcann's in the aspect of countering stupendously potent powers of Valkorion when it failed in this respect? Pointless subjectivity on your part in this case.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Oxymoron
Force lightning and Telekinesis are two completely different powers and affect a target in a different manner accordingly. Force lightning is designed to award 'excruciating punishment' to a living being and is officially recognized as one of the most difficult powers to resist via raw power. Telekinesis can also be employed to punish a living being but in a different manner.
A blast of Telekinesis, potent enough to collapse a wall, might only nudge Revan a bit. However, a stream of Force lightning might penetrate Revan's invisible defenses and force him to respond with his signature Tutaminis technique in order to protect himself from harm; whether Revan would be successful Revan in stopping the barrage, depends upon the strength of his opponent.
Vitiate did not brought Revan to his knees with his telekinetic powers (which would be top-notch as well) but with his FLS. Therefore, I am not sure how an impressive TK feat (in moving a Starship) is 'far more impressive' than an expression of Force lightning which brought one of the most powerful characters in history to his knees (in Revan). Pointless subjectivity on your part in this case again.
Valkorion soundly overwhelmed any opponent with his FLS (including Revan) in a fight. Arcann is the only individual who managed to counter his FLS with an esoteric technique.
A sledge hammer will kill a mouse as well as a cockroach.
So? They are (battle-hardened) Force-users with talents honed for combat and any engagement provided them sufficient gaps to replenish their energies with the Force when necessary. This is a useless point.
See my sledge hammer analogy above.
Valkorion grew in strength at his core - not with his physical forms exclusively. More explanation below.
Centuries earlier, Valkorion was able to create a Voice in beings ranging from a child to a well-trained Force-user; strength of an hollowed out being was not much of a factor to him for a while or he learned from his experiments. Valkorion continued to grow in power with passage of time and it may have narrowed down his pool of options accordingly. KoTFE and KoTET expansions gave me this impression so far.
As for your intriguing query; plot device is a thing, my friend.
Story-wise, judgement is an important factor and even Valkorion was not averse to it. Why didn't Valkorion devastate core worlds of the Republic much like Ziost? He could, but this would be a time-consuming strategy in bringing down the Republic to its knees and it would also draw lot of attention towards him, multiplying his adversaries among his followers and abroad; it is rather convenient to orchestrate a major war in the galaxy to ensure destruction of important institutions and numerous worlds when you have a powerful Empire at your disposal.
Valkorion had alienated the Sith with his actions earlier but he didn't want to alienate the civilization of Zakuul perhaps?
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sep 11th, 2017 at 02:25 PM
Revan believed in the possibility of that but this is not affirmed in the novel separately. Vitiate had centuries more to grow until he suffered a setback at the hands of Hero of Tython in Chapter 3 but he replenished his strength by consuming Ziost and and grew further up to Chapter 1 in KoTFE, so I am not sure where to position Vitiate as of Revan but it should be like 60% of his strength demonstrated in Chapter 1 of KoTFE.
Now, I am not sure how much hit Valkorion took in terms of strength from the loss of his Voice in Chapter 1 of KoTFE but his powers remained considerable nonetheless and he sought an extraordinarily powerful Force-sensitive to convert into his Voice since.
Darth Nihilus replicated Ziost by virtue of his extraordinary affinity with Force Drain powers with in turn were fueled by his unprecedented hunger. Ravaging a world with Force Drain powers is a virtually impossible feat otherwise because we know how much raw power it requires from Nathema.
Thon haven't experienced any apocalyptic event; he visited Ambria and trapped the spirits haunting the world in a Wall of Light on Lake Nath.
Valkorion is a being of unfathomable power even in his intangible form, a mere essence of his existence, as his exploits on Ziost suggest. After restoring his strength to his SWTOR base level in his intangible form, he consumed Ziost.
Consumption of Ziost propelled Valkorion even further in power, to the point that he no longer needed arcane machines to influence his subjects (apparent from his actions) and all forms of superweapons were inconsequential to him (his own statement).
Now, I am not sure how much drop in strength Valkorion experienced after loosing his Voice in Chapter 1 of KoTFE but I would caution against lowballing his spirit form. And I would also caution against underestimating the raw power of Arcann.
Valkorion did not one-shot Arcann with an FLS but with a Dark Blast.
Dark Blast is a new power and I doubt any Jedi and/or Sith can withstand it or has an appropriate counter for it; it materializes so fast that a measured response against it seems unlikely.
Conclusively, both bodied and disembodied incarnations of Valkorion one-shotted Arcann with a Force Blast. Conversely, Arcann could withstand an FLS of Valkorion unlike Revan.
This would be a viable argument if, Nox/Wrath weren't darkside users, they were amped just like Revan, and still flung back/treated the same as HoT/barsenthor. Anyway what evidence is their to
suggest Yavins darkside Nexus is as much of a boost as you claim?
During ToS:
"[The strike team member has been] discarded. [They are] being thrown through the air."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic
well, if you don't regard the Republic/Imperial soliders, that were killed instantly. It's called Plot, anyway it was regarded as a extremely high diffcult Fight, with the support of Light Revan, and
Battle meditation, while Revan was pretty weakened, as he absorbed the energy from a blast that would of killed, the strike team and all life in a 1km Radius, and tanked the energies from the Machine
capable of wiping out all life.
"So much power... be strong!"
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"He is strong with the Force! Argh!"
―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"Grant me strength! Keep... fighting...!"
―Satele Shan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Cute, Revan was assulted by A striketeam consisting, of 4 slightly weaker Outlanders, aided by Light Revan(The ****er was capable of lifting Massive archways) as a spirit on Yavin in which was stated
that no jedi could survive for long. And 4 Protags capable of each killing
Jedi/sith Masters. and barely manage to Drive him back, while he, spent part of his attention towards channeling vast
amounts of force energy to the machine core, during it, strike team>>>>>Outlander. You can't even remotely compare Revan's fights, with a one on one between Arcann and the outlander.
"You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?"
―Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
i'm sorry what?, that spirit Valkorian never dominated a strike team of that cailbar in his state. The evidence points in Revans favour.
Nah, he has shown cases of Dominating the Outlander, while fighting 7, 3 other force users on the Outlanders level, as well as the 4 other Protags, then proceed to Overwhelm while extremely weakened
, Satele/Marr/Lana etc, and would of Drained them to death without, Light Revan helping the Outlander, free them.
Since when did being near death affect ones connection to the force? Anakin should of died if that were the case.
Assumptions.
I clearly can't see him coming close.
Revan employed Tutamini's on a charged version of lightning. Arcann used a force barrier to barely divert force lightning. They aren't comparable, Arcann would of been fried if he employeed Tutamini's
on a less advanced version. He used a different technique, it doesn't Prove, infact it proves the opposite if comparing Raw power. absorbing>>>diverting. For all we know if Revan employeed a Force
Barrier it could of diverted to Meetra/scourges location. or done serious damage to the surroundings, Revan chose Tutaminis as the best option, so he did. There is no equivilance between the two doesn't
matter if it failed or not lmao.
They have to be comparable in energy, to break through a force barrier etc. In the end both require raw power. Its like you are suggesting, someone who can resist being Tk'd by Nihilus by minimal effect
, can be domniated by Lightning from a lesser opponent. That notion is plain wrong.
Potency, we have been through this.
Telekenesis, is not a direct as Lightning when it comes to the transfer of energy, Vitiate would of had to master Tk, to the point of his Lightning, aka doing something like what Satele did again Malgus
in the Hope trailer. He has the Raw power with Tk, but not the mastery or the right Area to use TK to the affect of his Lightning.
-Not the same version of lightning.
-Different techinque used, Revans required a metric ton more of power.
-Speculation on Valkorians strength.
Dependant on the amount of power used, when comparing attacks, you cannot use this analogy.
And how fast does one replenish their force power?, and their wasn't much time between attacks.
He still had his Valkorian Body alive, and yes he grew in power. Novel Vitiate already could do a Ziost, SOR/Ziost Valk, needed to Feed on death from War,
then drain people on Ziost to do that feat, as a spirit. Then expended a fair bit of energy on that Death field, but gained more in the process. All which was housed in Valkorian.
Sep 10th, 2017 03:18 PM
