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A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
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ScreamPaste
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That's right. In the Books specific numbers weren't given for Sauron's Troops. But Peter Jackson said he believed 200K was the approximate number! Now would the books differ from that number? I doubt so.

Else Tolkien would have spoken against those numbers. So it can be assume Tolkien agreed by the Numbers given by Jackson.

Isn't Like the movie is gonna say 200K and the books is gonna have 400K. Such discrepancies don't occur. And i don't expect this to be such a case.

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J.R.R. Tolkien has been dead since the ****ing 70's.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:03 AM
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FinalAnswer
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I can't help but notice that this guy wants to involve the forces before the time of the actual book.

Okay.

LotR now has Melkor at the height of his power, who is literally a walking volcano that eclipses Mt. Everest and annihilates continents in his battles with the Valar, who literally set the planet on fire, then upended the oceans to flood the lands. Who's armies numbered in the millions upon millions.

GJ trying to argue Low Fantasy against that tho thumb up


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:04 AM
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AuraAngel
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He still agreed to those numbers obviously.

Not sure why you guys are humoring this dude.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:06 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
no expression

J.R.R. Tolkien has been dead since the ****ing 70's.


OH ****! I forgot that laughing out loud laughing out loud

Still. There is no reason to believe that Jackson was wrong. What would he gain by reducing Sauron's numbers? Nothing.

As i said 200k it is.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:09 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I can't help but notice that this guy wants to involve the forces before the time of the actual book.

Okay.

LotR now has Melkor at the height of his power, who is literally a walking volcano that eclipses Mt. Everest and annihilates continents in his battles with the Valar, who literally set the planet on fire, then upended the oceans to flood the lands. Who's armies numbered in the millions upon millions.

GJ trying to argue Low Fantasy against that tho thumb up


Our books aren't done yet. We still got to see Bran's full powers.

He can travel to the past. All he got to do is drive Mordor crazy or Sauron and change the storyline.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:11 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
LotR now has Melkor at the height of his power, who is literally a walking volcano that eclipses Mt. Everest and annihilates continents in his battles with the Valar, who literally set the planet on fire, then upended the oceans to flood the lands. Who's armies numbered in the millions upon millions.


Isn't that after the events of LoTR???

If you read the topic of the thread is ASOIF vs The Hobit and LOTR armies.

Those events are after LoTR. They fall outside the storyline of this thread. I don't think they are valid Information...else the OP states otherwise, and in which case i was considering WHOLE DIFFERENT THINGS.

Those books are sequels to LoTR. I BELIEVE THIS THREAD IS LIMITTED TO THE END OF LOTR SEEN ON SCREEN. WHERE BILBO DESTROYED THE RING. ANY EVENT FURTHER THAN THAT SHOULDN'T TAKE PART.

At least i question it should.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:18 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OH ****! I forgot that laughing out loud laughing out loud

Still. There is no reason to believe that Jackson was wrong. What would he gain by reducing Sauron's numbers? Nothing.

As i said 200k it is.


No. Because Jackson had to scale back for the budget of the film. You have to remember, this was a host of a size not seen since the second age at the very least, when Numenor was at the height of it's power, and the Elves had recovered enough from fighting Morgoth as to reclaim some of their former glory. Thats a force closer to multiple millions, as the orcs alone blanketed more than half of Mordor at full strength. That is a force you can see from SPACE.

As for the timeframe, I never did exclude the Simarilion, because it contains the lore needed for the setting, but yeah, nothing outside of the timeframes set by the 4 main novels and the 6 movies. For ASOIAF, they get their lorebooks for lore, but timescale is the TV series and Main Novels.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:22 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Our books aren't done yet. We still got to see Bran's full powers.

He can travel to the past. All he got to do is drive Mordor crazy or Sauron and change the storyline.


The more likely event is that Bran will be rendered catatonic my an evil Maiar's dark power and desire. Sauron's mental capability is one that renders the Night King's a paltry plaything.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:23 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No. Because Jackson had to scale back for the budget of the film. You have to remember, this was a host of a size not seen since the second age at the very least, when Numenor was at the height of it's power, and the Elves had recovered enough from fighting Morgoth as to reclaim some of their former glory. Thats a force closer to multiple millions, as the orcs alone blanketed more than half of Mordor at full strength. That is a force you can see from SPACE.

As for the timeframe, I never did exclude the Simarilion, because it contains the lore needed for the setting, but yeah, nothing outside of the timeframes set by the 4 main novels and the 6 movies. For ASOIAF, they get their lorebooks for lore, but timescale is the TV series and Main Novels.


That makes no sense. They used Effects. Isnt like they hired 200K persons for the film lol.

I made my researchs. And in no website i saw 1million orcs!

As i said and i refrain! I dont expect the movie and book numbers to change drastically! It would be stupid for the movie director to say 200k and the book 2M!

It is very unlikely! And not Logical, ethical, or wise.

Once more. I stick to 200K.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:37 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That makes no sense. They used Effects. Isnt like they hired 200K persons for the film lol.

I made my researchs. And in no website i saw 1million orcs!

As i said and i refrain! I dont expect the movie and book numbers to change drastically! It would be stupid for the movie director to say 200k and the book 2M!

It is very unlikely! And not Logical, ethical, or wise.

Once more. I stick to 200K.


And you think those effects do not cost money?

I'm giving you an estimate based on the size of the Udun and Gorgoroth Plateaus. Because those forces stretched back as far as to the base of Barad-Dur.

Take a look at the map
http://tolkienists.ru/_ph/6/191955756.jpg


The force that surrounded Aragorn's army in the last battle LITERALLY was only the front lines. Jackson's line that we only SEE about 200k orcs, not including trolls or other creatures does not cover that which we do not see.

From that perspective, we can argue for multiple millions for Sauron's entire force, if we include the forces from Rhun, Khand, Harad, Umbar, the Goblins in Moria, and the remnants of Angmar.


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Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 11th, 2017 at 02:52 AM

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:46 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think those effects do not cost money?

I'm giving you an estimate based on the size of the Udun and Gorgoroth Plateaus. Because those forces stretched back as far as to the base of Barad-Dur.

Take a look at the map

The force that surrounded Aragorn's army in the last battle LITERALLY was only the front lines. Jackson's line that we only SEE about 200k orcs, not including trolls or other creatures does not cover that which we do not see.

From that perspective, we can argue for multiple millions for Sauron's entire force, if we include the forces from Rhun, Khand, Harad, Umbar, the Goblins in Moria, and the remnants of Angmar.


OHH I SEE!

you are taking the troops seen when Sauron was in his physical form!!!! Is that right? You are talking about the Battle that occured 2000 years prior to LoTR? Lord of the rings is based in the 3rd Age. The troops of Sauron aren't even NEAR to what they were originally in the 2nd Age.

As i said. In the Movie Sauron has 200K and should in the books too..NOW! If you are considering Sauron's original force..The One that was fought by Isildur and the other elfs then i believe it should be more.

Is that the case?

And no. Just by using a map and how the orcs were placed won't give you numbers. You are speculating there and id rather stick to words say by the Director than perspectives. 200K is more canon than 2M or more.

Also, that could have been a Hyperbole.

And no. The cost of 2M and 2K isn't much. Isn't like you will pay 2M for 2M orcs and 200K for 200k Orcs...Prices won't differ. Effects can give you any number without much change in price. Unless you give a detail approach at 2M orcs which then is different. But again LoTR movies never did this evein to their 200K orcs.

That makes no sense at all. I am still sticking to 200k. Any webpage on the internet is gonna give you numbers close to that. As i said, i did my research. Never saw 1M in a single page.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 02:59 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think those effects do not cost money?

I'm giving you an estimate based on the size of the Udun and Gorgoroth Plateaus. Because those forces stretched back as far as to the base of Barad-Dur.

Take a look at the map
http://tolkienists.ru/_ph/6/191955756.jpg


The force that surrounded Aragorn's army in the last battle LITERALLY was only the front lines. Jackson's line that we only SEE about 200k orcs, not including trolls or other creatures does not cover that which we do not see.

From that perspective, we can argue for multiple millions for Sauron's entire force, if we include the forces from Rhun, Khand, Harad, Umbar, the Goblins in Moria, and the remnants of Angmar.


Am asking cause that battle scene was seen in the beginning of LoTR. So i think you are trying to include those troops in this thread...Or am i wrong?

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:00 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OHH I SEE!

you are taking the troops seen when Sauron was in his physical form!!!! Is that right? You are talking about the Battle that occured 2000 years prior to LoTR? Lord of the rings is based in the 3rd Age. The troops of Sauron aren't even NEAR to what they were originally in the 2nd Age.

As i said. In the Movie Sauron has 200K and should in the books too..NOW! If you are considering Sauron's original force..The One that was fought by Isildur and the other elfs then i believe it should be more.

Is that the case?

And no. Just by using a map and how the orcs were placed won't give you numbers. You are speculating there and id rather stick to words say by the Director than perspectives. 200K is more canon than 2M or more.

Also, that could have been a Hyperbole.

And no. The cost of 2M and 2K isn't much. Isn't like you will pay 2M for 2M orcs and 200K for 200k Orcs...Prices won't differ. Effects can give you any number without much change in price. Unless you give a detail approach at 2M orcs which then is different. But again LoTR movies never did this evein to their 200K orcs.

That makes no sense at all. I am still sticking to 200k. Any webpage on the internet is gonna give you numbers close to that. As i said, i did my research. Never saw 1M in a single page.


No. Thats the battle of the Last Alliance. I'm talking about the final battle Aragorn lead out of Gondor after the battle of the Pelenor Fields. The Last Battle occurred at the Black Gate of the Morannon.

Do not confuse the two.

And Sauron had more troops in that battle than what was seen in the last Alliance, because what we saw in the movie of that fight, it was Sauron's last gambit for power, where he was forced to physically fight himself. Right on the foot of Mt. Doom itself.

Are you a professional Movie CG Animator? No? CG is not cheap, especially good quality CG. Unless you know something I don't about proffessional CG work, I am telling you, the more complex and detailed the CG, the more expensive it is going to be. Entire movie budgets can get blown on CG, Just ask Lucas, or Cameron.

You don't get to decide the numbers on your own. I have done the research for years myself, without relying on websites and research of other people. Jackson's comment ONLY referenced what we see on screen, not the entire force. Far from the entire force. And that was only for the Last Battle at the Morannon. It doesn't account for the forces sent to the Pelennor Fields. And it doesn't account for Rhun, Khand, Harad Moria and Angmar. Each of those is a major threat themselves. Harad's numbers alone dwarf Gondor's, and that is just by sheer virtue of the size of their landmass.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:10 AM
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ScreamPaste
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quote:
That makes no sense. They used Effects. Isnt like they hired 200K persons for the film lol.

Good CGI is extremely expensive.


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Our books aren't done yet. We still got to see Bran's full powers.

He can travel to the past. All he got to do is drive Mordor crazy or Sauron and change the storyline.


"B-But Bran might do something!"

Saruman, an angelic being that personally knew Sauron, was corrupted from mentally communicating with him, Sauron would devour Bran's mind if he tried to mess with him.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:11 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No. Thats the battle of the Last Alliance. I'm talking about the final battle Aragorn lead out of Gondor after the battle of the Pelenor Fields. The Last Battle occurred at the Black Gate of the Morannon.

Do not confuse the two.

And Sauron had more troops in that battle than what was seen in the last Alliance, because what we saw in the movie of that fight, it was Sauron's last gambit for power, where he was forced to physically fight himself. Right on the foot of Mt. Doom itself.

Are you a professional Movie CG Animator? No? CG is not cheap, especially good quality CG. Unless you know something I don't about proffessional CG work, I am telling you, the more complex and detailed the CG, the more expensive it is going to be. Entire movie budgets can get blown on CG, Just ask Lucas, or Cameron.

You don't get to decide the numbers on your own. I have done the research for years myself, without relying on websites and research of other people. Jackson's comment ONLY referenced what we see on screen, not the entire force. Far from the entire force. And that was only for the Last Battle at the Morannon. It doesn't account for the forces sent to the Pelennor Fields. And it doesn't account for Rhun, Khand, Harad Moria and Angmar. Each of those is a major threat themselves. Harad's numbers alone dwarf Gondor's, and that is just by sheer virtue of the size of their landmass.


Am talking about the second age war. Sauron jad more numbers that he did in the third.

And once more! 200k it is! Because those are numbers given by the LoTR director! They are valid. If the books would have given different numbers then i could disregard Jacksons numbers. But since your numbers are not proven by any text nor website, then the only numbers to stick to are Jackson's.

No matter how much research is that, you will never have more info than the net. The net seems to agree on 200k. So 200k it is for Sauron.

Lets not argue this point. Evidence points to 200k. Am not gonna give you more than that.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:39 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Good CGI is extremely expensive.


Ik. But the excuse isnt valid. 200k werent said just to reduce cost of production...that makes NO sense. Jacksonncould have said 50Million and that wouldnt change much in the cost. The excuse isnt valid.

200k is the official number. No more than that.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:41 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You still haven't given me your numbers. Am waiting. If those elfs struggle with Sauron's Orcs i don't see how they will do ANY BETTER against Twice those numbers!


Third Age Elves are a sad shadow of the First Age Elves. And Gondolin easily eclipses Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul

Speaking of Third Age Elves, Galadriel destroyed Dol-Guldur with her magic. And she is so powerful that nothing short of Sauron showing up and kicking ass would defeat her

As for Numenor, at their apex they were a multinational empire that outclassed Sauron's army in every conceivable way, including numbers. Plus according to "Lost Roads", they have steel hulled, steam powered ships that can fire large napalm bombs (or essentially their version of mini-nukes), or something like that. Of course, Lost Roads is kind of dubious canon so, make of that what you will. Regardless, they'd effortlessly romp GoT


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:43 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
"B-But Bran might do something!"

Saruman, an angelic being that personally knew Sauron, was corrupted from mentally communicating with him, Sauron would devour Bran's mind if he tried to mess with him.


Not mental communicatiom. Greenseeing and Mental communication isnt the same.

Sauron will just hear voices and dont know who is talking to him. Greenseeing is like an invisible person talking. Isnt like Bran gets literaly in his head.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:44 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Third Age Elves are a sad shadow of the First Age Elves. And Gondolin easily eclipses Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul

Speaking of Third Age Elves, Galadriel destroyed Dol-Guldur with her magic. And she is so powerful that nothing short of Sauron showing up and kicking ass would defeat her

As for Numenor, at their apex they were a multinational empire that outclassed Sauron's army in every conceivable way, including numbers. Plus according to "Lost Roads", they have steel hulled, steam powered ships that can fire large napalm bombs (or essentially their version of mini-nukes), or something like that. Of course, Lost Roads is kind of dubious canon so, make of that what you will. Regardless, they'd effortlessly romp GoT


OP has given the timelines of this thread. Stick to them please. Anything after the destruction of the ring of power is outside this thread.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:46 AM
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