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A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
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Darkstorm Zero
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Ok, I've recreated this thread with the fine folks over in Spacebattles, where vs are more structured. Look for it here And at Sufficient Velocity Here


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Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 11th, 2017 at 03:48 PM

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:45 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Incorrect. He was doing it LOOOOONG before the ring was ever forged. And he was also doing it while without the ring, in a depowered state, against Saruman.



What connection? If that is from a fan theory like bran actually IS the Night King or other some such nonsesne, then no... thats not even remotely admissable.



We arn't using hypothetical future variants of Bran here. And nothing he does is time travel. He can send uncontrolled words into the past, thats how Hodor was Hodor. Anything else is pure speculative and we cannot use it. However, Sauron's mental feats are too numerous and varied to list here, and would take minds more learned than mine to explain.



If we go by the hypotheticals you like so much, then as an angel/Maiar, of course he can. The magical wonders of the 2nd age and prior are so far out there you'd have to compare it to things like Elder Scrolls, or Legend of Zelda levels of magical f**knuttery.


Mental attacks and Greenseeing isn't the samething.

Really!? I thought Saruman was contacting Sauron. It was never specified that Sauron mental atteck Saruman. Saruman just turned dark.

Somehow the NK is the only one that can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. So there must be something there.

Yes Bran can time travel. He has been shown doing it. He changed Hodor's future. He were the words Ned Stark would often hear.

No. Sauron has never timetravel. At least it has never been said. Your hypothesis is unclaimed.

My Hypothesis is that Bran will become stronger. A strong timetraveler. He is ALREADY a timetraveler. My hypothesis has a fundament yours don't.

Else Sauron could have gone back in time to alter stuff.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:49 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You are mistaking evidence for accepted opinion. I'm telling you to reach your own conclusion as we all have. Ad populem fallacy is not a good way to debate, and I urge you to look at the actual source materials (Not the commentaries or others opinions, I mean the actual films and the books) and reach your own conclusion with your own deductive reasoning and logic. I'm not trying to dictate numbers to you, so I do not know why you are trying to dictate numbers to your opponents here. Especially in the face of it being irrelevant to other, more immediate concerns.


Am not dictating numbers. Am giving the numbers that are ACCEPTED by the community! You yourself said it. My numbers are ACCEPTED. Other numbers further than that beliefs and speculations.

The Moderator of this forum STATED CLEARLY that the use of WEBSITES can be used to strenghten and back up your ideas. So far no evidence in the books nor the websites back up any of my opponents numbers.

It's not me the one with the fallacy here my friend.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:52 PM
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Darkstorm Zero
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Mental attacks and Greenseeing isn't the samething.

Really!? I thought Saruman was contacting Sauron. It was never specified that Sauron mental atteck Saruman. Saruman just turned dark.

Somehow the NK is the only one that can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. So there must be something there.

Yes Bran can time travel. He has been shown doing it. He changed Hodor's future. He were the words Ned Stark would often hear.

No. Sauron has never timetravel. At least it has never been said. Your hypothesis is unclaimed.

My Hypothesis is that Bran will become stronger. A strong timetraveler. He is ALREADY a timetraveler. My hypothesis has a fundament yours don't.

Else Sauron could have gone back in time to alter stuff.


Saruman desired the Ring for himself. Sauron used this to corrupt him utterly. Saruman thought he was using Sauron, but was used utterly. Thats the very definition of mindraping him, just the same as Saruman did to Theoden.

Thats not time travel. That's the equivelant of a message in a bottle being the same thing as sailing.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:53 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ok, I've recreated this thread with the fine folks over in Spacebattles, where vs are more structured. Look for it here And at Sufficient Velocity Here


I dont' have an account for that forum. I won't participate in it. Am fine here.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:54 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Saruman desired the Ring for himself. Sauron used this to corrupt him utterly. Saruman thought he was using Sauron, but was used utterly. Thats the very definition of mindraping him, just the same as Saruman did to Theoden.

Thats not time travel. That's the equivelant of a message in a bottle being the same thing as sailing.


That is not a mental attack. I mean it is a psycho attack. Isn't like Sauron forced Saruman's mind. Sauron mind trapped him. He seduced him. And tricked him.

That isn't the same.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:55 PM
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Darkstorm Zero
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That is not a mental attack. I mean it is a psycho attack. Isn't like Sauron forced Saruman's mind. Sauron mind trapped him. He seduced him. And tricked him.

That isn't the same.


He did it with spells through the Palantir. You HAVE watched the scenes yes?


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 03:58 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He did it with spells through the Palantir. You HAVE watched the scenes yes?


Saruman contacted Sauron. Else why didn't Sauron did the same with Gandalf or other major characters?

Sauron isn't that much of a psycho attacker. He can do it only through the ring and when being contacted.

Greenseeing doesn't contact the host. Isn't like mental attacks or psycho powers.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 04:24 PM
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StealthRanger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I can't believe you'll take the Director's words for poor argumentation.

But any ways. I went and did further research and i found this well founded and evidenced webpage.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/inde...dle-earth.4431/

This is the Tolkien forum and they are discussing the Armies of the Trilogy and the Hobbit it seems.


Couldn't care less what other forums think. Either front your own argument or get out

quote:
I did my calculations.


Except you didn't

quote:
I added all numbers given in that page. And it seems that LoTR combined forces dont exceed 200K!!!!!


That's because your an idiot who's main tactic is repeating the same nonsense over and over again, and ignoring anything that beats your side hands down

quote:
You can check the comments bellow that thread. Everyone seems to agree with him.


Appeal to popularity

quote:
Now i got the Director's opinion and the Internet backing me up here guys.


Because we all know the internet is never wrong amirite ugais?

quote:
I've search all through the web and i haven't found any site supporting you claims people.

This new site i found even disclaim your points even further guys. The forces estimated for both LoTR and BoT5A don't even surpass the 200K.


And I don't care

quote:
Now people! Am giving you 500K!!! Am being very generous, because in NO WEBPAGE, FORUM, OR SITE, Do the numbers even reach as close.


Yeah, because I forgot that was your call to make. So sorry

quote:
If you can manage to bring me evidence that the numbers reach 500K i will be generous and give you 600K or maybe even 700K. But that won't happen cause i've been searching and searching and nowhere i can see your numbers.


Don't need to have a written down number to tell Sauron's entire military alone outclasses that number. Mind you, I fail to see why that's relevant when there are people who are so damn powerful to the point where GoT's armies are completely irrelevant, something you've decided to completely ignore

quote:
Am sorry but my statement is Clear and Concise. 500K it is for LoTR and BoT5A. Simply there is no evidence saying it can surpass those numbers. Not even evidence saying that it even reaches 500K.


There's plenty of evidence, but you're just retarded (or deliberately ignoring evidence) so, yeah

quote:
Please let's not swim against the current.


Speak for yourself. Now, from what I can see of you, you seem like a GoT fanboy. Just a fair warning, we don't take too kindly to your type around here. So, unless you want to be seen as yet another laughing stock, I suggest you take Jaime Lannister's penis out of your throat and start debating properly


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 10:32 PM
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StealthRanger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You said it. Well before. That doesn't concern this thread.


Never stated in the OP.

quote:
Again leave your personal comments to yourself.

If you guys keep the insulting i will contact a moderator! I care less for your insulting and it doesn't even prove any of your points.


We don't need to prove our point, because this shit's been done to death, and because you've never ever had a point to begin with


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2017 10:36 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Never stated in the OP.



We don't need to prove our point, because this shit's been done to death, and because you've never ever had a point to begin with


No yours had no point to begin with.

You havent shown me any evidence that saurons army can surpass 200k. You are mere speculation.

The only one you are fooling here is yourself.


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 01:29 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
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Ya know what... All that stuff about numbers is irrelevant. The SpaceBattlers reminded me of one uber trumpcard I completely forgot existed...

Aragorn's undead army f**ken solos

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)


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Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 12th, 2017 at 01:40 AM

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 01:37 AM
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StealthRanger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No yours had no point to begin with.


(please log in to view the image)

quote:
You havent shown me any evidence that saurons army can surpass 200k. You are mere speculation.


Nah, evidence was posted ten millenia ago. You have posted nothing solid *at all* for GoT's number

quote:
The only one you are fooling here is yourself.


And while we're on the subject.....


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 01:45 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ya know what... All that stuff about numbers is irrelevant. The SpaceBattlers reminded me of one uber trumpcard I completely forgot existed...

Aragorn's undead army f**ken solos

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)


This is gonna raise debate. The Army of the Dead of LoTR were seen killing livings. That doesn't imply that the same effect would apply for the dead.

It has been speculated that the Army of the Dead attack the soul or mental attack. There is no evidence that they can literaly harm the flesh.

So that would be a BUT. Because then the Army of the Dead of GOT won't get affected by this since they are already dead and have no sould. The White Walkers themselves wouldn't be harmed neither. Again there is no proof that Ghosts can harm Walkers.

Also, if the Army of the Dead take part of the war then they would be limmited to killing only a certain amount of troops.

As seen in the movie LoTR. They only helped Aragon with some of the troops. Isn't like they went to morgoth themselves and killed all the Enemy. I wouldn't accept that.

Also the Dark Riders are also Ghosts and they seem to get affected by fire.

SO Here is my trumpcard:

(please log in to view the image)


(please log in to view the image)

WILDFIRE!

No army of LoTR would withstand this!!!

No orc, no troll, no oniphant, no elf!!! All i could hear is, "BURN THEM ALL!".

There were 100s of Thousands of these under King's Landing! PLUS! Cercei and Tyrion Ordered the mass production of these!

MAN! I was hesitant to bring that point in since i believe my numbers are enough to DECIMATE you.

500K troops! Pfff we outnumber.

Using Wildfire will just increase the inevitable! DOOM for LOTR.

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 02:34 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StealthRanger
(please log in to view the image)



Nah, evidence was posted ten millenia ago. You have posted nothing solid *at all* for GoT's number



And while we're on the subject.....


Okay show me evidence that Sauron's troops can surpass 200k.

Do me that favor. Cause the only one giving evidence here is me. You all have based your numbers on speculation and not accepted numbers.

As DARK said, 200K is the accepted number by the community. No internet page, no wiki, no forum will exceed those numbers BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN PASS THAT!

Saruman's army in LoTR was of 10K!!!!!!!! Sauron ordered him to make a massive army!!!! 10K!!!

PFFF please. Don't try and fool me. LoTR won't even reach 500K in troops.

The most it could possible reach is 350K.

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 02:38 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
The Ultimate Warrior

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
This is gonna raise debate. The Army of the Dead of LoTR were seen killing livings. That doesn't imply that the same effect would apply for the dead.

It has been speculated that the Army of the Dead attack the soul or mental attack. There is no evidence that they can literaly harm the flesh.

So that would be a BUT. Because then the Army of the Dead of GOT won't get affected by this since they are already dead and have no sould. The White Walkers themselves wouldn't be harmed neither. Again there is no proof that Ghosts can harm Walkers.

Also, if the Army of the Dead take part of the war then they would be limited to killing only a certain amount of troops.

As seen in the movie LoTR. They only helped Aragon with some of the troops. Isn't like they went to morgoth themselves and killed all the Enemy. I wouldn't accept that.


Why? They are spectral blades not hindered by physical defense. And the Dead of Dunharrow are able to move a whole hell of a lot better than the Wights.

As for the white walkers, again, these things are not hindered by anything physical save for Anduril. There's no reason to assume the Walkers defenses hinder the spectral blades in the least. And unlike the Walkers cold defences, these things have demonstrated affecting things even as large and impregnable as the Mumak.

Why? The dead of Dunharrow fight for Aragorn because he is the only one who can release them to the Halls of Mandos. This situation is not the same thing as charging into Mordor and fighting Sauron. (And since you brought it up) Attacking Morgoth, an archangel who has undead horrors that make the Dead of Dunharrow look shallow in comparison would be suicidal.

And again, you are trying to dictate terms to me. Do not do that, or you can leave the thread.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Also the Dark Riders are also Ghosts and they seem to get affected by fire.

SO Here is my trumpcard:

(please log in to view the image)


(please log in to view the image)

WILDFIRE!

No army of LoTR would withstand this!!!

No orc, no troll, no oniphant, no elf!!! All i could hear is, "BURN THEM ALL!".

There were 100s of Thousands of these under King's Landing! PLUS! Cercei and Tyrion Ordered the mass production of these!

MAN! I was hesitant to bring that point in since i believe my numbers are enough to DECIMATE you.

500K troops! Pfff we outnumber.

Using Wildfire will just increase the inevitable! DOOM for LOTR.


So fire is an effective weapon is it?

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

Don't be silly. laughing


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Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 12th, 2017 at 02:55 AM

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 02:52 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
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Also:

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay show me evidence that Sauron's troops can surpass 200k.

Do me that favor. Cause the only one giving evidence here is me. You all have based your numbers on speculation and not accepted numbers.

As DARK said, 200K is the accepted number by the community. No internet page, no wiki, no forum will exceed those numbers BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN PASS THAT!

Saruman's army in LoTR was of 10K!!!!!!!! Sauron ordered him to make a massive army!!!! 10K!!!

PFFF please. Don't try and fool me. LoTR won't even reach 500K in troops.

The most it could possible reach is 350K.


I urge you, look up my thread on Spacebattles. You don't need an account to read. They are far more learned than I am. Have a look at the numbers they calculated. You may be surprised.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...-armies.566896/


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Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 12th, 2017 at 03:11 AM

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 02:57 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Also:

(please log in to view the image)



I urge you, look up my thread on Spacebattles. You don't need an account to read. They are far more learned than I am. Have a look at the numbers they calculated. You may be surprised.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...-armies.566896/


Wow i might. Those guys seem more mature than all tbr babies which posted here.

I havent seen numbers surpassing 500k.

All the contrary. Many guys are supporting my claims. Many are supporting GoT. Unlike here which let their fanatism cloud their judgement. Not refering to you.

Tomorrow i will discuss further your Army of the dead point.

Ohh and. Most guys were wrong at calculating Westeros army in spacebattles. It is more than that. For if in one thing i know a lot is in ASOIF.

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 03:42 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
The Ultimate Warrior

Gender: Male
Location: Punching you in the throat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Wow i might. Those guys seem more mature than all tbr babies which posted here.

I havent seen numbers surpassing 500k.

All the contrary. Many guys are supporting my claims. Many are supporting GoT. Unlike here which let their fanatism cloud their judgement. Not refering to you.

Tomorrow i will discuss further your Army of the dead point.

Ohh and. Most guys were wrong at calculating Westeros army in spacebattles. It is more than that. For if in one thing i know a lot is in ASOIF.


Well, over there, the books have to take precedent as that is the higher cannon.

Although they do give the Dothraki a huge number increase per khalassar.


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Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 03:48 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well, over there, the books have to take precedent as that is the higher cannon.

Although they do give the Dothraki a huge number increase per khalassar.


Ive read the rules. But how could a book take presedence if it gives no numbers while the movies do? (LoTR)

Old Post Sep 12th, 2017 02:05 PM
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