Okay first of have this clear. If you are going to engage with me in a discussion we have to reach a common agreement. I am not dictating anything.
In the movie the army of the dead were used to attack on army only. Isnt like Aragon used them to win the war. Isnt like they marched against Mordor. So if well you can use them. So, i wont agree on them being used to defeat all of GoT.
As i said. The Weighs arent alive. They wouldnt get harmed by ghosts. They dont have a soul.
No evidence that Ghosts can harm WW. Melissandre was seen sending sending a ghost to kill Renly Baratheon. She could have done the samething to the NK. It is unlikely that WW could get harm by these.
Fire could repel them. Just like it did with the Dark Horsemen of Sauron.
The only fire you got is one dragon and that balrog. We got MORE than that. Much more.
But you are. You are trying to tell me which numbers are which, AND you are trying to tell me how to use the forces despite that being a pure act of plot convenience.
Because act of plot are applicable in a vs match... Wait, thats not how this works. Thats never how that works in ANY vs forum I've ever seen.
You are assuming that the spectral blades work by soul striking. I would like to see evidence of this.
Special pleading and begging the question fallacies while relying on acts of plot are not the way we do things here. Mellisandre's Shadow Babies don't even work the same way as the Dead of Dunharrow. They still kill through physically stabbing, as evidenced by the bleeding hole Renly got when he was impaled all the way through.
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Oh yes, early on. It's not like the Witch King wields a flaming sword, or that the Nine were not wreathed in Sauron's fire completely unharmed, and it's not like I didn't just post pictures of these very things to prove it....
I swear, it seems like you are deliberately ignoring things to suit your argument.
And at least 3 Istarii Wizards, and a Maiar, and at least one Nazgul with a flaming sword. See? Deliberately ignoring things here...
The only one ignoring things here id you my friend.
First of all am giving reasonable numbers. Am not basing my numbers on speculations. LoTR wont surpass 500K. Simply because you got no evidence of it! Call it what you want. You are the one who is unreasonable here.
Fire can harm the ghosts. Or scare themm i got wildfire and three dragons. I dont see fit for your ghosts to attack all my troops simply becaude the movie didnt show them as taking part of the war. They only helped Aragon in one battle and then they vanished off. It might help my plot but it is true. Those ghost cant be used as troops. Else Sauron would have used them. Or Aragon would have sent them to Mordor to win the war.
They are spectres. Their weapons dont have a physical form. They havent been proved doing physical damage. Else bring me prove.
Again Ghosts cant harm White Walkers cause there isnt evidence of this. Only Dragon glass and Valyrian steel have been proven to do so.
There's nothing reasonable about those numbers. All you've shown is a vague quote Jackson made in the commentaries, in regards to a single host of Orcs. You misinterpreted that as meaning the ENTIRE MORDOR ARMY! How is that reasonable in the least?
Fire can harm the Nazgul's physical disguise. But it cannot destroy them, it cannot prevent them from reforming as the Witch King did. But Fire never ever stopped the Dead of Dunharrow. Sauron did use them - The Ghostly Legions of Angmar, the Wights of the Barrow Downs, the Shades of Arnor, the Spectres of the Dead Marshes, and various other undead from specific fortresses like the lesser wraiths - The Castellans of Dol Guldur, or the various undead monsters found in Minas Morgul. When it comes to necromancy and the varieties of undead? Sauron has this in the bag bar none.
Ah, but you are assuming they are damaging their targets via spirit.
You roll back on this defense again. Do you now see why arguing with you goes in circles? You are assuming more defense than what was demonstrated by the Walkers. Do not do that again - I'm not going to provide the same evidence for the same damn point again and again because you refuse to let it sink in. So far, the walkers defense consists of shattering common steel and that is IT. it's not an absolute defense without evidence, so do not go assuming that Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass are the only ways through it. The only reason you say this is because these are the only ones that the Westerosi have found to work, and they certainly have not tried anything else.
That is the last time I go around the same points with you Josh, you keep rewinding back to these same arguments that have been defeated repeatedly in the hopes that you exasperate your opponents enough to make them concede out of frustration. That is a classic trolling tactic, and I hope you are not trolling... I would not be pleased with that.
Your rules contradict your statements DSZ. Jackson is the director of the film. That means that according to the movie there are 200k orcs the most! Now, i have given you movie evidence. I have given you a number which wasn't only stated by the director but which is also well approved on the LoTR community. Most if not ALL sites will back up my claim.
Furthermore, in the movie we are told that Isildur's army is 10K! 10!!!! Sauron told Saruman to build a MIGHTY army and he made 10!! I don't see why me saying 200K should be incorrect.
So, what we have here is a battle of which one weights more. You are using book speculations while am using movie facts. I am using evidence. Which one weights more? Book speculation or Movie evidence? Obviously the evidence. Even more, you stated that both movies and books were canon material. In this case the movie's numbers are canon.
The Nazgul are ghosts to. I never said fire would kill them. But they would withdraw. Fire woulld withdraw your dead. And as i said before. The LoTR Army of the dead will be limitted. Simply because they can't take the Whole Westerosi Army on themselves. In the movies they helped Aragon defeat some of Sauron's troops. Isn't like Aragon used them to win the war, or made them march against Mordor defeating all the Orcs there. I won't expect the Army of the dead killing more than 50K of Westerosi troops before vanishing.
Again no proof that the White Walkers can be killed using Ghosts. Nor the Weighs.
They are spectres. They have no physical weapons. They can't harm the flesh. There is no evidence of that, else show me. They are ghosts. They aren't living dead.
Again am just saying what the Shows and the Books have said. White Walkers have been shown to be vulnerable to Valyrian and Dragonglass.
I would expect the major characters to be able to kill the White Walkers. Like Aragon, or Gandalf. But beside the major characters, the White Walkers are immune to anything.
I wouldn't expect an Orc Sword to resist an Ice spear. Those will shatter easily.
Wrong. I said book canon takes presedence. But even if I refered to pure movies, Jackson's statement covers one host of orcs. Sauron had 2 hosts of orcs, plus 5 other armies in total. You cannot be that disingenuous witht he words for one particular scene dude. Now, accept this and move on. I'm not claiming the orcs number in the millions/
Again, you are wrong. Sauruman specifically says "Tens of thousands" as in PLURAL, as in 20K or more. You really need to hear the words better.
Wieighs more? Book canon is the primary source. Both are admissable, but if there is conflict of information then the books take precedent as they are the senior canon. The books are the highest source after all, and this is true for both franchises. martin's books, and tolkien's books must be regarded more highly than the movies and shows.
The Nazgul are a different kind of undead though. Not all undead are the same. You should know that.
Angmar's ghostly Legions are just as effective as the dead of Dunharrow when mustered.
Like I said before, we arn't using plot contrivances here. And this isn't a boardgame. Aragorn let them go because he made a promise, and that was because plot demanded it. We arn't constrained by acts of PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity).
No proof they can't be either, and since once again you made the positive claim, you provide the positive evidence.
They can't harm the..... What?! The literal thousands of skulls that dogpiled Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the city of the dead outright proves you wrong!
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Please do not spout such utter lunacy!
No, you are regurgitating what fallible characters in universe know works. Have they tried magic? no. Have they tried crushing them with catapult shots? No, have they tried ANYTHING bar swinging standard metal weapons at them? NOPE! The Walkers defenses have not been tested in any other fashion at all EVER. Assuming that they ARE invulnerable without testing it is garbage logic, and you should feel ashamed for trying to pass that off as any reasonable form of evidence FOR something. Allow me to teach you a principal of debating Josh - The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. As in do not assume it is so if you cannot show it to be so. We can assume that Orcish weapons, besides enchanted ones, would indeed shatter. We can assume Gondorian weapons, besides enchanted ones, will shatter. We can assume even the finely crafted Dwarven and Elvish weapons, besides enchanted ones, will shatter. We cannot assume innately magical weapons will shatter however, because we know magic F**ks the Walker's shit all over the place. Valyrian Steel's construction with fire magic proves it, as does the wights shattering once they enter the 3 Eyed Raven's Cave. We assume that lightbringer, being an innately magical weapon worked the same as well, despite not being made of Valyrian Steel.
You'd need to define major characters. Almost all uniques or rares are innately magical beasts of combatants. Aragorn and Gandalf are only but two/ LOTR has many, many MANY heroes who operated even just during the time of the War of the Ring.
As I mentioned above. The Walkers Ice blades would probably work all the way to Elvish or Enchanted weapons, but there are a LOT of those.
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"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 12th, 2017 at 04:33 PM
If you are gonna face LoTR vs ASOIF that Army of the Dead will be limmited!!
Dont expect them to win the war for you! Else All Tolkien or Aragon or Gandalf would have done is to summon them to win the war for them. They would have crushed mordor and isengard! But that never happen. Your Trumpcard will be limitted. Isnt like LoTR wins just for those Ghost which never took part of the real war.
Thats not reasonable. And you merely repeating that does not make it any more accurate than when you first said it.
Estimates reach 300K for the orc army that attacked Osgiliath alone, this is why your numbers only possibly account for the Morannon host, and not Sauron's entire force. I have repeatedly told you this but you seem to cling to the notion that Jackson's 200k comment is all encompasing and means every Orc in Mordor ever.
I believe the exact quote was "Ten thousand strong AT LEAST" Stop being disingenuous with words.
F**king what? Non evidenced!? I gave you all the evidence any reasonable person needs. I'm not the one misinterpreting (Or in this case being deliberately disingenuous with words) a commentary.
You don't get to decide that. Stop putting plot limiters in a vs match. If you are that undone by the Dead of Dunharrow, I don't have to use them at all. I have superhuman soldiers like the Elves who cut a swath through Westerosi levies like a scythe through wheat and who have literal aimbot longbow accuracy.
Estimates OMG. ESTIMATES!!! Hey people, guess what ESTIMATES weight more than ACTUAL NUMBERS! AMAZING!
Where in the books do they claim that Sauron has 300k? WHERE? Cause in all the websites i read, they claim the books never gave a number! Do you think i am answering based on ESTIMATES? I am participating into this thread because i MADE MY REASEARCH!
I am not inventing numbers nor reducing Sauron's Troops to support my plot. I BASED MY PLOT ON EVIDENCE. If i would have found on the Internet that Sauron's troop reach 1M, or 700K i would have made my plot that LoTR wins. SINCE i didn't, I have to say GoT wins BECAUSE they outnumber.
If you think am BASING my plot on defending my favorite film. THATS WRONG. I am very impartial.
So again, those numbers WON'T surpass 200K because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF SUCH.
10K the least places Saruman's army between 10K-19K. Else Aragon would have said 20K or Tens of 1000. He said at least 10K. That is not enough.
Again GoT OUTNUMBERS due to facts and evidence. Am not centering my points on Speculations/which show i like the most/which one i believe wins/ which author i prefer.
As long as am concern sustaining your point of view and dictating isn't the same thing. Unless you feel ofcourse that you don't have enough evidence to strenghten your own points, in which case it feels like you are losing the discussion. Which would seem like am dictating terms, since my points are stronger than yours.
Lol, righteo. Anything that disagrees with your pov is wrong.
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Your using the word of Jackson, in one scene, to cover an entire force. Not only is that disingenuous and dishonest, it flies in the face of what we saw earlier in that same movie.
You are. there's no way around that. I don't care what you find on the net, unless it's Tolkien's own word. Everything past that IS speculation. I did my caclulations based on his words, where the orcs covered Udun and the Gorgoroth Plateau up to the base of Barad Dur, because that was Tolkien's description. That is a distance measured in MILES, swarming with orcs. You can fit literal millions of orcs in that space, but I GAVE you 200K orcs FOR THAT ONE HOST, Not both, and not for the other 5 forces at Sauron's command, because THAT is logical reasoning, THAT is how you deduce things, and THAT is the force Sauron REQUIRES to conquer Arda. it's called common sense.
Oh yeah, impartial.... With invulnerable White Walkers despite them not showing invulnerability to anything beyond common steel. Then we have the uber skilled Night King despite their being no evidence of this uber skill beyond a strong Javelin arm. Then we have you trying to fob numbers for your oposition. You are the very DEFINITION of impartial... No.... Not impartial... whats the other word I'm looking for?
Oh yeah... Biased.
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Ok, thats for the numbers sent against Helms Deep. He still has more at Isengard, along with the mordor Orcs he had sent to him by Sauron.
Did I claim superior numbers? No. I claimed the number disparity was nowhere near as great as you think it is, nor do the numbers matter in the face of several superhuman armies.
200K is the most! For my word! My word is the word of what THE INTERENT says. And YES, anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong. You can't fight the internet. 200k they say it's because of something. Not only Jackson, other fans of LoTR and people with more knowledge on the books and movies than you and me together.
You never had any points except for misinterpreting words. I've not insulted you, but you insult my intelligence with your deliberate misdirection and references to other peoples opinions without ever forming one of your own with independent study. Congrats, you failed debating 101.
Ok, lets calm down and take a second here.
Alright, for the sake of argument, lets say I Give you the numbers you want. Alright, what does that achieve? The LOTR side still has several superhuman ARMIES at their disposal, including a large number of naimed characters that have feats so far out there it's unreal. Legolas? The wizards? Aragorn? Sauron!? The Balrog? Galadriel? Elrond? The Nazgul? All of whom have far beyond superhuman feats.
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"I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 13th, 2017 at 01:49 AM
You call me unreasonable and not responsive to the opinions of the net. There is a reason why I do my own independent work when i do these threads, because any information can be incorrect without verification. I do that myself, as I have always done.
Why did you reply to the same post 3 times?
Anyways, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here josh, as you are clearly very new to debating, you are quite young, and you are a massive fan of Game of Thrones. Clearly you arn't ready yet, as you also suffer the newbie flaws of stubbornness and simply refuse to listen to anything that opposes your views. I can understand this... Even i was new once, a very long time ago. We all were. But in your current and present state, trying to debate with you is clearly not going to work. You already abandoned my thread in Spacebattles because you don't like the prep time and the hypotheticals, even though these debates are all entirely hypothetical.
In the end, I'll leave you to lurk more and learn. If you want to say you won these threads, thats fine... Anyone who reads these posts will see what I was trying to do for themselves. So in the end, it doesn't really matter all that much to me.
Bahahahahaha! Calling you unreasonable isnt insulting ypu. I said you were unreasonable here, which is true.
Actually no. Am very old to debate, thats why am so good.
You want to know why i have the Living Tribunal as my profile pic? Cause am impartial, just like LT. I dont just go arround posting on threads without doing research of my own first. Thats the reason why i managed to smash your points here. And thats why i dont surrender to my points.
I always pick the winning side based on facts you should try it sometime
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Sep 12th, 2017 02:15 PM
you should try it sometime
