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A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Explain.



I'm not talking about numbers at all, I'm now talking about the quality of the troops.





Realistic does not mean better.



So, Eomer's Riddermark and theoden's entire host is not taken into account at all? Why?



Except that the majority of that is LEVY TROOPS. less than a third of that would be a standing force, and even then only very wealthy great houses actually even have those. Lets not forget that Westeros is a feudalist society. The only people with any real combat experience are annointed knights. And those are measured in triple digits across Westeros. You are more likely to find your seasoned solders in Essos, where they are trained and blooded, like the Unsullied, or even the Dothraki, even though the Dothraki are not really trained. Hell, even the merc companies from the disputed lands, or the standing armies of the free cities would be better spots to pick from than Westeros in terms of good quality fighters. Joffrey even makes mention of these facets when he talks t his mother about military power.



Lol, ASOIAF troops are not all that great. And strategy is debatable, considering Gondor alone held back the far superior forces of mordor for FIVE THOUSAND YEARS. They managed to hold that crumbling line against superior forces for five thousand years.... That is no small feat.



The council of the wise, and indeed Sauron himself disagrees.



But these two things are debatable, especially in the face of magical communications thanks to Sauron (This is how me called the armies of far distant lands to the east and south to fight for him on extremely short notice.)


Am talking about the quality of troops as well.

Yes it matters. LoTR isnt realistic. They just battle without any strategy. You dont see them laying elavorate traps. Using military tactics.

Pfff Sauron is powerful!!! But he falls short in comparisson to Tywin when war is related. Place Tywin instead of Sauron, and Tywin would have won the war against Aragonm

No LoTR commander would defeat Tywin on the field.

Quality of troops mean less when against quality of strategy.

Old Post Sep 14th, 2017 02:36 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
The Ultimate Warrior

Gender: Male
Location: Punching you in the throat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am talking about the quality of troops as well.


You just mentioned only the numbers. You never said why the standard ordinary troops are superior. Battlecommanders arn't troops, nor are strategies.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yes it matters. LoTR isnt realistic. They just battle without any strategy. You dont see them laying elavorate traps. Using military tactics.


What are you talking about? Sauron's entire 5000 year war was an elaborate trap, and the only reason he lost, was because a pair of little hobbits managed to get past Cirith Ungol with his Deas Ex Machina.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Pfff Sauron is powerful!!! But he falls short in comparisson to Tywin when war is related. Place Tywin instead of Sauron, and Tywin would have won the war against Aragonm


Right, because Tywin can plan a 5000 campaign..... Moving on.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No LoTR commander would defeat Tywin on the field.


Sauron, even Saruman, who knows how to make, and use actual explosives (Something Tywin has never used) not to mention Tywin would be facing a lot of out of context problems, such as magic, something he expressly does not even believe in.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Quality of troops mean less when against quality of strategy.


Ok, lets compare. Sauron has brought the entirety of Middle Earth to it's knees despite fierce oposition, and the loss of his ring. The Nazgul, and specifically the Witch King have brought ruin to the realms of men, and crushed Arnor. The goblins flushed the dwarves out of their greatest stronghold in Moria, leaving them a shattered people. Sauron's plot with the rings of power undid the might of the Elves, a force largely responsible for his defeat at the end of the 2nd Age.

before that, it was Sauron who caused the downfall of Numenor, not with strength of arms, but by deception, plotting, and trickery. He turned the Numenorean Kings against the Valar, and had them break the pact, which caused Eru Illuvatar to sink Numenor. Only Elendil's Nine Ships escaped, and it is these men that founded Gondor and Arnor. - This means Sauron effectively tricked GOD into destroying one force of good he corrupted.


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Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 14th, 2017 at 02:53 AM

Old Post Sep 14th, 2017 02:48 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You just mentioned only the numbers. You never said why the standard ordinary troops are superior. Battlecommanders arn't troops, nor are strategies.



What are you talking about? Sauron's entire 5000 year war was an elaborate trap, and the only reason he lost, was because a pair of little hobbits managed to get past Cirith Ungol with his Deas Ex Machina.



Right, because Tywin can plan a 5000 campaign..... Moving on.



Sauron, even Saruman, who knows how to make, and use actual explosives (Something Tywin has never used) not to mention Tywin would be facing a lot of out of context problems, such as magic, something he expressly does not even believe in.



Ok, lets compare. Sauron has brought the entirety of Middle Earth to it's knees despite fierce oposition, and the loss of his ring. The Nazgul, and specifically the Witch King have brought ruin to the realms of men, and crushed Arnor. The goblins flushed the dwarves out of their greatest stronghold in Moria, leaving them a shattered people. Sauron's plot with the rings of power undid the might of the Elves, a force largely responsible for his defeat at the end of the 2nd Age.

before that, it was Sauron who caused the downfall of Numenor, not with strength of arms, but by deception, plotting, and trickery. He turned the Numenorean Kings against the Valar, and had them break the pact, which caused Eru Illuvatar to sink Numenor. Only Elendil's Nine Ships escaped, and it is these men that founded Gondor and Arnor. - This means Sauron effectively tricked GOD into destroying one force of good he corrupted.


I have. I said we got better humans.

We got more and better trained Humans that LoTR ever had. Aragon is a good soldiers, but his armies and those of Gondor would mean nothing against a Lannister army, or an Unsullied Army.

Why? Because the Lannisters were better trained for all-type of wars in where LoTR humans were trained to kill Orcs.

And yes strategically we are better. The Lannister army isn't feared due to it's numbers, but due to their commanders. No LoTR commander could outsmart Tywin or Tyrion in the battlefield. We haven't seen those sorts of military maneuvers in LoTR.

Sauron can be old! But he will never reach Tywin on the field. The only reason Sauron is a formidable foe for Middle Earth Armies is because those Orcs reproduce like pigs!

The only real advantage Sauron ever had was numbers. Sauron nor Saruman were able to use those numbers to win. Those are facts. Sauron and Saruman just kept sending hordes of Orcs at poorly trained, poorly prepared armies.

In this case those Orcs won't do much against well nourished and trained soldiers like those of Westeros.

Tywin can never plan a 5000 year campain because he isn't immortal, else he would have had a 10 000 year campaign. Also he has never had the Horrendous military failures Sauron had. He lost all 2 wars. The only reason Sauron was able to cause such havoc was because he Outnumbered, this time he doesn't have the Number advantage.

So this is my resume:

LoTR advantages:
-Slightly better magic
-Some races would be superior (Elves, Orcs, and Dwarfs)
-Smaug is bigger than any of Daenery's dragons
-The Army of the dead (Which seem immune to anything, but which play very little role in the movies and therefore aren't expected to get fully involved here).

ASOIF advantages:
-Higher number of troops
-Better commanders (Tyrion, Cercei, Tywin, Robb stark, Stannis)
-More Dragons
-Better trained human troops.
-Our army of the dead isn't limitted.
-Highly immune White Walkers.

I would still hang on ASOIF side. A good strategy can defeat even greater odds. In this case we have an advantage.

With excellent war commanders like Tywin, Cercei, Tyrion Lannister, Robb Stark, Stannis and Robert Baratheon, Jon and Jaime. I don't doubt victory hangs more on this side than on LoTR.


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Last edited by Josh_Alexander on Sep 14th, 2017 at 03:44 AM

Old Post Sep 14th, 2017 03:41 AM
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Darkstorm Zero
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I have. I said we got better humans.

We got more and better trained Humans that LoTR ever had. Aragon is a good soldiers, but his armies and those of Gondor would mean nothing against a Lannister army, or an Unsullied Army.


Josh, your doing that thing again. You assert without citation, repeatedly. You don't even try to explain HOW or WHY you believe the things you do. I at least explain my side... Come on dude, at least try...

I'm not explaining again why you are not correct in asserting. We've been over that, and doing it again is going to make me chunder literally.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Why? Because the Lannisters were better trained for all-type of wars in where LoTR humans were trained to kill Orcs.


What? Are you saying Gondor and Rohan troops never fought Harad and Rhun? I'm pretty sure we SEE in the movie Faramir's rangers attack and kill troops of Harad. So you are dead wrong on that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And yes strategically we are better. The Lannister army isn't feared due to it's numbers, but due to their commanders. No LoTR commander could outsmart Tywin or Tyrion in the battlefield. We haven't seen those sorts of military maneuvers in LoTR.


Levy troops, which make up the majority of Westerosi armies are NOT better trained. This is uncontestable. They are not standing armies, and even tywin himself calls them levies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consc...Medieval_levies Learn what this means.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Sauron can be old! But he will never reach Tywin on the field. The only reason Sauron is a formidable foe for Middle Earth Armies is because those Orcs reproduce like pigs!


Sauron's ability to get into peoples minds with fear and suspicion brought Numenor undone. The Witch king shattered Arnor militarily, and both these feats are more than anything Tywin ever did. Yes, tywin put down a pair of vassal houses within his OWN borders. He managed to give assurances to walker frey to eliminate Rob Stark and the northern leadership (not really an option here, because no evil force is going to betray Sauron here, and even if they did they would never be able to defeat him.)

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The only real advantage Sauron ever had was numbers. Sauron nor Saruman were able to use those numbers to win. Those are facts. Sauron and Saruman just kept sending hordes of Orcs at poorly trained, poorly prepared armies.

In this case those Orcs won't do much against well nourished and trained soldiers like those of Westeros.


Bull. On every conceivable level. Orcs are capable of fighting the decendants of numenorean supersoldiers. Hell they have fought Numenorean supersoldiers, Dwarves, and Elves. Numbers alone are not enough, and Orcs only make up the meat. Read the list I gave you. Those are the basic forces, they do not account for things like the Nazgul, the Castellans of Dol Guldur, Hasharin, the Serpent horde, the monsters of Middle Earth like the Balrog, or the Watcher in the Water, or the stone giants. Levy troops are not given anything more than very basic training.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Tywin can never plan a 5000 year campain because he isn't immortal, else he would have had a 10 000 year campaign. Also he has never had the Horrendous military failures Sauron had. He lost all 2 wars. The only reason Sauron was able to cause such havoc was because he Outnumbered, this time he doesn't have the Number advantage.

So this is my resume:

LoTR advantages:
-Slightly better magic
-Some races would be superior (Elves, Orcs, and Dwarfs)
-Smaug is bigger than any of Daenery's dragons
-The Army of the dead (Which seem immune to anything, but which play very little role in the movies and therefore aren't expected to get fully involved here).

ASOIF advantages:
-Higher number of troops
-Better commanders (Tyrion, Cercei, Tywin, Robb stark, Stannis)
-More Dragons
-Better trained human troops.
-Our army of the dead isn't limitted.
-Highly immune White Walkers.

I would still hang on ASOIF side. A good strategy can defeat even greater odds. In this case we have an advantage.


An assumption on your part, and irrelevant anyway. But first lets address...

When was Cersei ever considered a competent military leader? She singlehandedly screwed over her own house on numerous occasions. She blew up the great scept not out of strategic competence, but out of pure spite. And in doing so she completely severed ties with her one great ally. Tyrion as of Season 7 has proven he is not all that great at military campaigning. and Jamie got outwitted by a 16 year old Robb Stark.

I mean... What the hell man?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
With excellent war commanders like Tywin, Cercei, Tyrion Lannister, Robb Stark, Stannis and Robert Baratheon, Jon and Jaime. I don't doubt victory hangs more on this side than on LoTR.


No.... because the Game of thrones forces don't have any real means of attaininbg victory. They can't even kill half the leaders on the LOTR side at all, and the others, nobody on the GOT side has the powr or skill to overcome them. Even Elrond was blowing away nazgul with magically empowered sword slashes. They couldn't get in closer to him, but they also were not being destroyed.


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2017 04:08 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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Lets discuss 1 point at a time

1st of all the human armies.

Okay answering your demand for evidence, i must say neither of us has concrete evidence to point out that your or mine humans are better than thr other's.

You will never find something that says: LoTR humans train fod 2 days while ASOIF humans train for 4 days for instance.

So all we can do here is support our claims based on what was seen on screen and the battles our humans fought. As well as the foes our humans fought and how their style of battling.

Here is why i believe my humans are better than yours:

1. Enemies defeated:

LoTR humans' foes have always been orcs. I some instances other humans. The issue i find with that is that although orcs are strong and fearsome, they are really just savages.

Orcs dont have strategy nor do they fight smartly.

As seen in the movies. Orcs are just move forward and attack. They dont use tactics, nor do they fight smartly.

The only disadvantage Humans ever had in LoTR was being outnumbered.

For instance: Have 10K LoTR humans vs 10K orcs. Humans would win.

However, ASOIF humans fight other humans. This is a much harder task than fighting screaming beasts that will just move forward using their strenght to win.

In that aspect i believe My Humans got a better chance against your humans.

LoTR humans = are used to fighting less smarter and less tactic foes.
ASOIF humans= are used to fight equal or smarter more tactic foes.

If we assume that both our humans are same trained and have the same skills. My humans would atill have the advantage on experience.


2. Tactical arsenal and Dicipline:

This is a point which goes in hand with the ability of the commander to direct thier troops.

As weve discussed before, ASOIF is more realistic. While Tolkien focuses on his mythical creatures and adding that Magical touch to his novels, Martin focused on the battlefield and making those well detail battle scenarios.

Thats why i can give you exact accurate numbers about my troops as well. You on the other hand have to speculate a lot on the number of troops.

In a similar way, Martin was able to well portray the different tactics and how well diciplined the different human races are.

I can definetly trust that my armies will do the required job on the field.

The Lannister army for instance. Tywin Lannister made sure they were well trained on the different war tactics.

I dont doubt that my armies will be able to effectively siege or protect castles. I dont doubt that on the field they will be able to effectively carry out the various war tactics and maneuvers. Cause the Book has portrayed them like that.

Not the same can be said about LoTR. Tolkien was never that specific in his wars as Martin was.

3. ASOIF wide variety and better trained soldiers in some cases (I managed to find some instances in where some of my armies would be better trained and do better on the field than yours. I had to go read a couple of my books again)

Again, Martin did an exceptional job at describing the different wars and portraying the different Armies in his book. This manages to give readera a better understanding about the various houses and armies.

I can without a doubt give you some instanes in where my troops will be superior than yours.

1. The Unsullied Army: As i said, Martin made a more realistic world. The Unsullied would represent the Spartans or USA Marines in this case.

I know for sure that no human army of LoTR is better trained than the Unsullied. These army was trained since they were kids. They were put to the hardest mental, physical, and spiritual conditions. These is well explained in Martins books. I doubt any LoTR army has this kind of training.

2. The Dothraki Horselords: Similar to the Unsullied these tribes are trained to master horse ridding since they were babies. No LoTR Cavalry would match them on the field. Not even infantry would dare fight them on open field.

Again Martin was very explicit at describing ASOIF races.

Lord Tywin and King Robbert himself both claim several times that no army could stand against Dothraki on open fields.

3. The Iron Fleet: If the lands arent safe, the seas wont be any safer. For those who die may never die again.

The Iron Fleet would not let a Single vessle a float! Just like the Dothraki, the Greyjoy's Army train their sailors since they are kids! They are masters of the waters. Martin also portrayed this army in an excellent way.



All of these last points arent based on speculation but on the book's description of the various armies.

I dont doubt that for instance the elfs might be better than my land forces. But since their numbers are very low they wont make much of a difference in the long term

I took my time elavorating this points. I went and open my books again.

When you reply just quote and reply. Dont cut and write in between. Its easier for me to read. Please.

Last edited by Josh_Alexander on Sep 14th, 2017 at 04:51 PM

Old Post Sep 14th, 2017 04:48 PM
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Darkstorm Zero
The Ultimate Warrior

Gender: Male
Location: Punching you in the throat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lets discuss 1 point at a time

1st of all the human armies.

Okay answering your demand for evidence, i must say neither of us has concrete evidence to point out that your or mine humans are better than thr other's.

You will never find something that says: LoTR humans train fod 2 days while ASOIF humans train for 4 days for instance.

So all we can do here is support our claims based on what was seen on screen and the battles our humans fought. As well as the foes our humans fought and how their style of battling.

Here is why i believe my humans are better than yours:

1. Enemies defeated:

LoTR humans' foes have always been orcs. I some instances other humans. The issue i find with that is that although orcs are strong and fearsome, they are really just savages.

Orcs dont have strategy nor do they fight smartly.

As seen in the movies. Orcs are just move forward and attack. They dont use tactics, nor do they fight smartly.

The only disadvantage Humans ever had in LoTR was being outnumbered.

For instance: Have 10K LoTR humans vs 10K orcs. Humans would win.

However, ASOIF humans fight other humans. This is a much harder task than fighting screaming beasts that will just move forward using their strenght to win.

In that aspect i believe My Humans got a better chance against your humans.

LoTR humans = are used to fighting less smarter and less tactic foes.
ASOIF humans= are used to fight equal or smarter more tactic foes.

If we assume that both our humans are same trained and have the same skills. My humans would atill have the advantage on experience.

2. Tactical arsenal and Dicipline:

This is a point which goes in hand with the ability of the commander to direct thier troops.

As weve discussed before, ASOIF is more realistic. While Tolkien focuses on his mythical creatures and adding that Magical touch to his novels, Martin focused on the battlefield and making those well detail battle scenarios.

Thats why i can give you exact accurate numbers about my troops as well. You on the other hand have to speculate a lot on the number of troops.

In a similar way, Martin was able to well portray the different tactics and how well diciplined the different human races are.

I can definetly trust that my armies will do the required job on the field.

The Lannister army for instance. Tywin Lannister made sure they were well trained on the different war tactics.

I dont doubt that my armies will be able to effectively siege or protect castles. I dont doubt that on the field they will be able to effectively carry out the various war tactics and maneuvers. Cause the Book has portrayed them like that.

Not the same can be said about LoTR. Tolkien was never that specific in his wars as Martin was.

3. ASOIF wide variety and better trained soldiers in some cases (I managed to find some instances in where some of my armies would be better trained and do better on the field than yours. I had to go read a couple of my books again)

Again, Martin did an exceptional job at describing the different wars and portraying the different Armies in his book. This manages to give readera a better understanding about the various houses and armies.

I can without a doubt give you some instanes in where my troops will be superior than yours.

1. The Unsullied Army: As i said, Martin made a more realistic world. The Unsullied would represent the Spartans or USA Marines in this case.

I know for sure that no human army of LoTR is better trained than the Unsullied. These army was trained since they were kids. They were put to the hardest mental, physical, and spiritual conditions. These is well explained in Martins books. I doubt any LoTR army has this kind of training.

2. The Dothraki Horselords: Similar to the Unsullied these tribes are trained to master horse ridding since they were babies. No LoTR Cavalry would match them on the field. Not even infantry would dare fight them on open field.

Again Martin was very explicit at describing ASOIF races.

Lord Tywin and King Robbert himself both claim several times that no army could stand against Dothraki on open fields.

3. The Iron Fleet: If the lands arent safe, the seas wont be any safer. For those who die may never die again.

The Iron Fleet would not let a Single vessle a float! Just like the Dothraki, the Greyjoy's Army train their sailors since they are kids! They are masters of the waters. Martin also portrayed this army in an excellent way.



All of these last points arent based on speculation but on the book's description of the various armies.

I dont doubt that for instance the elfs might be better than my land forces. But since their numbers are very low they wont make much of a difference in the long term

I took my time elavorating this points. I went and open my books again.

When you reply just quote and reply. Dont cut and write in between. Its easier for me to read. Please.


#1: I answer this, by pointing to Gothmog, who ousted the Gondorian armies out of all their strongholds along the Ithilien, before outmaneuvering and taking Osgiliath by stealth. This is in the movie.

This proves that the orcs do have strategy, especially the Morannon and Morgul veterans and their captains.

On top of this, we see the use of siege tactics by both Isengard Uruk-hai, and by the legions of Mordor.

And then there's the experience. Gondor has been fighting these armies, Rhun, Khand, Harad and Mordor for five, thousand, years. They have a standing force of highly trained and experienced solders by necessity. Westeros doesn't have a standing army as per Joffrey's lamentation. He says this in the show. And a few other times people have said "clading a man in leather jerkin and giving him a pike doesn't make him a soldier" I believe Robb Stark said that. Now, earlier, I gave you a link to what levies are. Did you read it?

#2: This point has been debated to death, and you are using Tolkien's lack of specifics as theatrics as an excuse to downplay aspects of military forces that have to content with supernatural forces and high magic far more often. This doesn't even need addressing, as I already addressed it earlier. You never had a counter for what I gave you about Sauron, none at all. And the others are all almost as effective. Also, again, Gothmog.

#3: Hah, np. not better trained. Not against the heirs of Numenor, nor are they better trained than those from Rhun. I'd say they are better trained that those from Khand, or Harad, but that's not saying much.

Gondorian soldiery are heirs of Numenor, who are legit superhuman. They are also all clad in plate armor and mail. Something that is a rarity for all but the wealthiest westerosi force, and unlike say Lannister levies or even the few proffessional soldiers they have, Gondorian armor is made of the craftsmanship preserved out of Numenor. Then we have the Dol Amoroth Swan Knights, the Axemen of Lossarch, the Clansmen of Lamedon, and the Blackroot Vale Archers who were said to be almost as good as the Elven bowmen of Murkwood (Legolas' homeland) And those are just Gondor's feifs. I havn't touched on Rohan at all, I havn't touched on the Dunedain Rangers either, nor the Woses Warriors, and those are just the forces of living men...

And to answer your challenge these people have been doing this a long god damn time, they are trained by very experienced soldiers from incredibly young ages to be soldiers. You may think of orcs as rabble, but if that was all they were, then you really do not understand how they work. They are only rabble when they are away from Sauron and his most loyal servants gaze for any length of time. When organised under say gothmog, or a Nazgul, or a proxy like Saruman, they are incredibly dangerous when guided, and because of their numbers, they make convenient cannon fodder infantry that cares nothing for the loss of numbers. In a way, that makes them a more dangerous form of your Wights. because unlike Wights, orcs can fight intelligently.


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Old Post Sep 15th, 2017 01:45 AM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#1: I answer this, by pointing to Gothmog, who ousted the Gondorian armies out of all their strongholds along the Ithilien, before outmaneuvering and taking Osgiliath by stealth. This is in the movie.

This proves that the orcs do have strategy, especially the Morannon and Morgul veterans and their captains.

On top of this, we see the use of siege tactics by both Isengard Uruk-hai, and by the legions of Mordor.

And then there's the experience. Gondor has been fighting these armies, Rhun, Khand, Harad and Mordor for five, thousand, years. They have a standing force of highly trained and experienced solders by necessity. Westeros doesn't have a standing army as per Joffrey's lamentation. He says this in the show. And a few other times people have said "clading a man in leather jerkin and giving him a pike doesn't make him a soldier" I believe Robb Stark said that. Now, earlier, I gave you a link to what levies are. Did you read it?

#2: This point has been debated to death, and you are using Tolkien's lack of specifics as theatrics as an excuse to downplay aspects of military forces that have to content with supernatural forces and high magic far more often. This doesn't even need addressing, as I already addressed it earlier. You never had a counter for what I gave you about Sauron, none at all. And the others are all almost as effective. Also, again, Gothmog.

#3: Hah, np. not better trained. Not against the heirs of Numenor, nor are they better trained than those from Rhun. I'd say they are better trained that those from Khand, or Harad, but that's not saying much.

Gondorian soldiery are heirs of Numenor, who are legit superhuman. They are also all clad in plate armor and mail. Something that is a rarity for all but the wealthiest westerosi force, and unlike say Lannister levies or even the few proffessional soldiers they have, Gondorian armor is made of the craftsmanship preserved out of Numenor. Then we have the Dol Amoroth Swan Knights, the Axemen of Lossarch, the Clansmen of Lamedon, and the Blackroot Vale Archers who were said to be almost as good as the Elven bowmen of Murkwood (Legolas' homeland) And those are just Gondor's feifs. I havn't touched on Rohan at all, I havn't touched on the Dunedain Rangers either, nor the Woses Warriors, and those are just the forces of living men...

And to answer your challenge these people have been doing this a long god damn time, they are trained by very experienced soldiers from incredibly young ages to be soldiers. You may think of orcs as rabble, but if that was all they were, then you really do not understand how they work. They are only rabble when they are away from Sauron and his most loyal servants gaze for any length of time. When organised under say gothmog, or a Nazgul, or a proxy like Saruman, they are incredibly dangerous when guided, and because of their numbers, they make convenient cannon fodder infantry that cares nothing for the loss of numbers. In a way, that makes them a more dangerous form of your Wights. because unlike Wights, orcs can fight intelligently.


Thanks was easier for me to read smile .

Remember point by point. We are not discussing the Weighs yet.

1.Am not saying orcs are completly stupid beasts. They do have a sense of basic warfare. But you and me should agree that they arent complex in their atracks.

Orcs may have some battle tactics bu they are nowhere near to the tactics seen in ASOIF troops.

Good point. The way they sieged that castle is evident that they have little to no strategy in war.

For instance, this is what i believe the Lannister Army would have done:

1. They wouldnt have charged the castle but instead wait for them to get out of food.

2. Elfs wouldnt have been able to hit them since they would possibly be out of arrow range or would have use their longshields to cover themselves.

3. They would have sent spies to cover their backs. The orcs arent smart enough as to do this. Rohan's cavelry basically caught them off guard.

Again Dark. Am not saying that my levies are better trained. Am saying they have more battle tactics at their disposal.

In the field my humans would have that advantage over yours. Your troops have NEVER fought against good strategic and tactical enemies. They are used to fight savage orcs with little knowladge on battle strategies or tactics.

You claimed to have played Strategy Games. You should know how formidable a good tactical and strategical army can be.

2. Yes Tolkien's way of depicting his war's AFFECTS you greatly.

1) You are never given numbers of troops in the books.

2)Tolkien NEVER depicted well ELAVORATE strategies/tactics/traps in his battles. Martin depicted his armies as VERY tactic and strategic in his books. Reason WHY i know for sure that my troops would outsmart yours on the field (I should win my point above)


3. No. These troops i gave you IK are better trained than yours in their respective areas.

in this case George R R Martin made an excellent JOB at depicting how well trained these various humans were.

Tolkien lack of Specifics makes you lose this point.

No they arent SUPERHUMAN else they wouldnt be human at all. Makes no sense; i cant give you that.

If Orc Swords can harm them i dont see why My troops wouldnt be able to do so.


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Old Post Sep 15th, 2017 02:46 PM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all! Aragon has faced brainless stupid foes. Jaime Lannister wouldn't even struggle in cutting that proud neck open.


Aragorn can cut through shields, deflect arrows, withstand trolls and uruk-hai strength in sword duels, and cut through armies. Jaime Lannister killed three guys before being subdued by Robb Stark's bodyguard, and has no noticeable strength or speed feats.

quote:
Am not saying Gandalf isn't impressive. But he can't kill an entire army himself. Besides he will be busy counteracting Red Witches and Warlog's dark magics.


The Red Witches have no particularly impressive magic. Melisandre requires quite a bit of prep to spawn a single shadow assassin, which is the most impressive magic they've done. Gandalf can shatter mountainsides fighting balrogs, blind entire armies with his light, and actually, you know, use fire in combat.

quote:
Don't underestimate the army of the dead. I don't see why those Orcs are any more formidable!


For one thing, orcs have access to bows, explosives, and other such equipment. The wights fight only with melee weapons. They don't even have archers lul.

Oh, and LotR's army of the dead is much more formidable.

quote:
The Greenseers can Counter Act Souron's magic and spells. The White Walkers can do so too. The Children of the Forest...Same story. Sauron is an OVER RATED VILLAIN. HE WAS KILLED AFTER HIS FINGERS GO SLASHED!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA WOW SO IMPRESSIVE!


Show them counteracting magic of Sauron's magnitude.

Also, Sauron wasn't killed by having his fingers slashed in the books. I understand that you're a stupid retard, but remember that the books are used in this thread.

quote:
We got 3 DRAGONS. You got one.


That one dragon is much more powerful than the three dragons in GoT, and more importantly, no, counting the books there are more dragons.

quote:
We got hundreds of SCORPIONS and DRAGON KILLER ARROWS. You got ONLY 1 BLACK ARROW! As shown in the Hobbit films. We got the ICE SPEARS and HUNDREDS OF WW.


Sauron can handle all of that by himself tbh. No army needed.

quote:
-SMAUG will be as vulnerable as a sheep. While my dragons are in less peril. Also once SMAUG falls, we will have an ICE SMAUG for our army. Why don't you go and reconsider that.


Smaug would kill all three of Daenerys' dragon and her entire army tbh.

quote:
NO. THE OP DIDN'T STATED THAT STORIES AND THE PAST WOULD TAKE PART. ELSE THINGS WOULD GET MUCH MORE COMPLICATED IN TERMS OF DRAGONS, TROOPS, POWERS, ETC. AND STILL I DOUBT LOTR CAN WIN.


The Silmarillion isn't a collection of stories from the past. It's the history of the setting, completely canon.

quote:
"According to the ironborn legend, Nagga was the first sea dragon, able to feed on krakens and leviathans and drown islands when angry. The Grey King, helped by the Drowned God, managed to slay her on the shores of the island Old Wyk and built there his hall out of her bones. Her jaws became his throne and her teeth made his crown. He warmed his hall with her living fire. However, when the Grey King died, the Storm God drowned out her fire and the sea took the throne. Only her bones that made the pillars and beams remain".

OHHH, expect TSUNAMIS in your COASTLINES.

"King Durran, also known as Durran Godsgrief, was a legendary First Men figure of the Age of Heroes and the first of the Storm Kings, who ruled the Stormlands until the Targaryen invasion of Westeros. According to legend, Durran won the love of Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the wind goddess, and took her as his wife.
In rage, the gods sent a storm to destroy his keep over Shipbreaker Bay, killing his family and guests. Declaring war against them, Durran built new castles, each larger and more formidable than the previous one, though all were the destroyed by the divine storms. Finally, the seventh castle, which Durran built with the aid of either the Children of the Forest or a very young Bran the Builder, withstood the rage of the gods and became known as Storm's End, while Durran earned the nickname of "Durran's Godsgrief" and ruled as the first Storm King"

Uhhh. I don't see why we should fear Morgoth or Sauron in that case! A man who defied the GODS!! What are mere MAGICIANS in comparisson of Gods?


As opposed to these, which really are just legends that could easily be bullshit.

quote:
We would also have Brandon the Builder! Expect a HUGE ICE WALL! WITH POWERFUL ENCHANTMENTS NO ORC COULD CROSS!


You think Brandon will be able to build a second wall in the middle of a war? You really are retarded.

quote:
"During the war of the First Men and the children of the forest, greenseers are said to have turned trees into warriors[5] and sent beasts against humans.[6] As the tales go, they used the hammer of the waters to shatter the Arm of Dorne into the Broken Arm and the Stepstones, but the First Men continued to settle throughout Westeros.[3] The Neck was also flooded by their magic.[4] The greenseers and wood dancers of the children agreed upon the Pact with the First Men at the Isle of Faces."


"said".

quote:
AND I COULD GO ON AND ON WITH TALES OF ASOIF. I COULD BRING SO MANY CHARACTERS FROM THE PAST THAT LOTR DEFEAT IS CERTAIN!


The funny part is that, even if all that is true, Melkor alone would destroy those mythical beings.

quote:
So, lets not get the past involve into this please! We don't want havoc!


Might as well. LotR still wins.

quote:
IN CONCLUSION: Before you go mocking and making fun of other people's comments go to the bathroom and take out your personal problems. Don't bring them here, and try to release your anger with people of the community!!! Furthermore, make a little research before taking a side!
I have no personal problems my man, you're just a stupid idiot.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 08:47 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all, no. His words mean a lot. The OP was refering to the Movies. So, that it is.

I doubt the Numbers in the Movies and in the Books differ from one another! That WOULD MAKE NO SENSE! ASOIF and GOT shows' numbers don't differ that much. So i am not gonna take it as if PETER JACKSON'S WORDS were incorrect. I believe he gave an accurate approximation!
You have no basis for this.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 08:48 PM
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Josh_Alexander
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Aragorn can cut through shields, deflect arrows, withstand trolls and uruk-hai strength in sword duels, and cut through armies. Jaime Lannister killed three guys before being subdued by Robb Stark's bodyguard, and has no noticeable strength or speed feats.



The Red Witches have no particularly impressive magic. Melisandre requires quite a bit of prep to spawn a single shadow assassin, which is the most impressive magic they've done. Gandalf can shatter mountainsides fighting balrogs, blind entire armies with his light, and actually, you know, use fire in combat.



For one thing, orcs have access to bows, explosives, and other such equipment. The wights fight only with melee weapons. They don't even have archers lul.

Oh, and LotR's army of the dead is much more formidable.



Show them counteracting magic of Sauron's magnitude.

Also, Sauron wasn't killed by having his fingers slashed in the books. I understand that you're a stupid retard, but remember that the books are used in this thread.



That one dragon is much more powerful than the three dragons in GoT, and more importantly, no, counting the books there are more dragons.



Sauron can handle all of that by himself tbh. No army needed.



Smaug would kill all three of Daenerys' dragon and her entire army tbh.



The Silmarillion isn't a collection of stories from the past. It's the history of the setting, completely canon.



As opposed to these, which really are just legends that could easily be bullshit.



You think Brandon will be able to build a second wall in the middle of a war? You really are retarded.



"said".



The funny part is that, even if all that is true, Melkor alone would destroy those mythical beings.



Might as well. LotR still wins.

I have no personal problems my man, you're just a stupid idiot.


I hate whe they cut the quotes and write in between. Makes it harder to read and makes your reply look bulky. Please just quote me and answer so i can read it better. Please.

Okay first of all! Jaime is a master swordsman, not an idiot! Jaime was ambushed by Robb! Jaime isnt a senseless dude who wont admit defeat. And it would do you well to remember that before being captured he killed two well train dudes as easy as pissy!

Youd have placed Aragon in his place and the outcome would have BEEN THE SAME!

Put Jaime instead of Aragon and he would have also faced Orcs and Trolls!! They are brute beasts with no sword training not battlefield strategy! The onlu thing orcs have is Strenght! So dont come and tell me Aragon is so mighty by slaying a few barbaric creatures!

Lol. Melissandre is just ONE red priest. ASOIF have several and even some better prepared. Gandalf's light was used to repel the Nargul, and doesnt necessary means it blinds people! Gandalf isnt immortal, he will die once his army is defeated on the field.

Sauron COULD BARELY handle Unprepared and outnumbered armies, i doubt he can even do something against a prepared strong army! Sauron is overrated.
Smaug would die before he even gets close to the dragons. Our scorpions would obliterate him, plus our Dragons are more,.Dont get carried by fanatism


The silmarlion is cannon but it isnt of concern to this Thread. Stop falling out of context!

Focus on the thread! I care less about what happened in the past!

Thanks for continue the obsene language, You have just proven your lack of education. Consider yourself reported.


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 04:29 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
You have no basis for this.



You have no basis for yourself!


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This is Impediment's section but I have received a PM regarding this thread. Stop the trolling/bashing and stay on topic.


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Old Post Sep 19th, 2017 08:11 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Badabing
This is Impediment's section but I have received a PM regarding this thread. Stop the trolling/bashing and stay on topic.


thumb up

Thanks.


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ScreamPaste
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
thumb up

Thanks.
You're a cowardly pussy who's wrong

More importantly, no, in the situations Aragorn came out fine in, not only would Jaime, or any mortal man from more realistic fiction, not succeeded, they would have died.


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Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 01:28 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Badabing
This is Impediment's section but I have received a PM regarding this thread. Stop the trolling/bashing and stay on topic.
Yeah Josh Alexander, stop the trolling and bashing.


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Old Post Sep 20th, 2017 03:15 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You're a cowardly pussy who's wrong

More importantly, no, in the situations Aragorn came out fine in, not only would Jaime, or any mortal man from more realistic fiction, not succeeded, they would have died.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah Josh Alexander, stop the trolling and bashing.


I dont fall into your childish behaviors.

LoTR loses here, sorry if your fanatism got hurt.


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Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 12:52 AM
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LOTR takes this. And it's not really close, like at all.


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Old Post Sep 21st, 2017 12:13 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by meep-meep
LOTR takes this. And it's not really close, like at all.


I see it quite opposite.


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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I see it quite opposite.


Yes, but that's because you're an idiot


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Home » Movie Genres » Foreign Cinema » A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies

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