Gender: Male Location: Punching you in the throat.
You just mentioned only the numbers. You never said why the standard ordinary troops are superior. Battlecommanders arn't troops, nor are strategies.
What are you talking about? Sauron's entire 5000 year war was an elaborate trap, and the only reason he lost, was because a pair of little hobbits managed to get past Cirith Ungol with his Deas Ex Machina.
Right, because Tywin can plan a 5000 campaign..... Moving on.
Sauron, even Saruman, who knows how to make, and use actual explosives (Something Tywin has never used) not to mention Tywin would be facing a lot of out of context problems, such as magic, something he expressly does not even believe in.
Ok, lets compare. Sauron has brought the entirety of Middle Earth to it's knees despite fierce oposition, and the loss of his ring. The Nazgul, and specifically the Witch King have brought ruin to the realms of men, and crushed Arnor. The goblins flushed the dwarves out of their greatest stronghold in Moria, leaving them a shattered people. Sauron's plot with the rings of power undid the might of the Elves, a force largely responsible for his defeat at the end of the 2nd Age.
before that, it was Sauron who caused the downfall of Numenor, not with strength of arms, but by deception, plotting, and trickery. He turned the Numenorean Kings against the Valar, and had them break the pact, which caused Eru Illuvatar to sink Numenor. Only Elendil's Nine Ships escaped, and it is these men that founded Gondor and Arnor. - This means Sauron effectively tricked GOD into destroying one force of good he corrupted.
The Supreme Master Of The Fist!
Last edited by Darkstorm Zero on Sep 14th, 2017 at 02:53 AM
We got more and better trained Humans that LoTR ever had. Aragon is a good soldiers, but his armies and those of Gondor would mean nothing against a Lannister army, or an Unsullied Army.
Why? Because the Lannisters were better trained for all-type of wars in where LoTR humans were trained to kill Orcs.
And yes strategically we are better. The Lannister army isn't feared due to it's numbers, but due to their commanders. No LoTR commander could outsmart Tywin or Tyrion in the battlefield. We haven't seen those sorts of military maneuvers in LoTR.
Sauron can be old! But he will never reach Tywin on the field. The only reason Sauron is a formidable foe for Middle Earth Armies is because those Orcs reproduce like pigs!
The only real advantage Sauron ever had was numbers. Sauron nor Saruman were able to use those numbers to win. Those are facts. Sauron and Saruman just kept sending hordes of Orcs at poorly trained, poorly prepared armies.
In this case those Orcs won't do much against well nourished and trained soldiers like those of Westeros.
Tywin can never plan a 5000 year campain because he isn't immortal, else he would have had a 10 000 year campaign. Also he has never had the Horrendous military failures Sauron had. He lost all 2 wars. The only reason Sauron was able to cause such havoc was because he Outnumbered, this time he doesn't have the Number advantage.
So this is my resume:
-Slightly better magic
-Some races would be superior (Elves, Orcs, and Dwarfs)
-Smaug is bigger than any of Daenery's dragons
-The Army of the dead (Which seem immune to anything, but which play very little role in the movies and therefore aren't expected to get fully involved here).
-Higher number of troops
-Better commanders (Tyrion, Cercei, Tywin, Robb stark, Stannis)
-Better trained human troops.
-Our army of the dead isn't limitted.
-Highly immune White Walkers.
I would still hang on ASOIF side. A good strategy can defeat even greater odds. In this case we have an advantage.
With excellent war commanders like Tywin, Cercei, Tyrion Lannister, Robb Stark, Stannis and Robert Baratheon, Jon and Jaime. I don't doubt victory hangs more on this side than on LoTR.
Last edited by Josh_Alexander on Sep 14th, 2017 at 03:44 AM
Gender: Male Location: Punching you in the throat.
Josh, your doing that thing again. You assert without citation, repeatedly. You don't even try to explain HOW or WHY you believe the things you do. I at least explain my side... Come on dude, at least try...
I'm not explaining again why you are not correct in asserting. We've been over that, and doing it again is going to make me chunder literally.
What? Are you saying Gondor and Rohan troops never fought Harad and Rhun? I'm pretty sure we SEE in the movie Faramir's rangers attack and kill troops of Harad. So you are dead wrong on that.
Levy troops, which make up the majority of Westerosi armies are NOT better trained. This is uncontestable. They are not standing armies, and even tywin himself calls them levies.
Sauron's ability to get into peoples minds with fear and suspicion brought Numenor undone. The Witch king shattered Arnor militarily, and both these feats are more than anything Tywin ever did. Yes, tywin put down a pair of vassal houses within his OWN borders. He managed to give assurances to walker frey to eliminate Rob Stark and the northern leadership (not really an option here, because no evil force is going to betray Sauron here, and even if they did they would never be able to defeat him.)
Bull. On every conceivable level. Orcs are capable of fighting the decendants of numenorean supersoldiers. Hell they have fought Numenorean supersoldiers, Dwarves, and Elves. Numbers alone are not enough, and Orcs only make up the meat. Read the list I gave you. Those are the basic forces, they do not account for things like the Nazgul, the Castellans of Dol Guldur, Hasharin, the Serpent horde, the monsters of Middle Earth like the Balrog, or the Watcher in the Water, or the stone giants. Levy troops are not given anything more than very basic training.
An assumption on your part, and irrelevant anyway. But first lets address...
When was Cersei ever considered a competent military leader? She singlehandedly screwed over her own house on numerous occasions. She blew up the great scept not out of strategic competence, but out of pure spite. And in doing so she completely severed ties with her one great ally. Tyrion as of Season 7 has proven he is not all that great at military campaigning. and Jamie got outwitted by a 16 year old Robb Stark.
I mean... What the hell man?
No.... because the Game of thrones forces don't have any real means of attaininbg victory. They can't even kill half the leaders on the LOTR side at all, and the others, nobody on the GOT side has the powr or skill to overcome them. Even Elrond was blowing away nazgul with magically empowered sword slashes. They couldn't get in closer to him, but they also were not being destroyed.
Okay answering your demand for evidence, i must say neither of us has concrete evidence to point out that your or mine humans are better than thr other's.
You will never find something that says: LoTR humans train fod 2 days while ASOIF humans train for 4 days for instance.
So all we can do here is support our claims based on what was seen on screen and the battles our humans fought. As well as the foes our humans fought and how their style of battling.
Here is why i believe my humans are better than yours:
1. Enemies defeated:
LoTR humans' foes have always been orcs. I some instances other humans. The issue i find with that is that although orcs are strong and fearsome, they are really just savages.
Orcs dont have strategy nor do they fight smartly.
As seen in the movies. Orcs are just move forward and attack. They dont use tactics, nor do they fight smartly.
The only disadvantage Humans ever had in LoTR was being outnumbered.
For instance: Have 10K LoTR humans vs 10K orcs. Humans would win.
However, ASOIF humans fight other humans. This is a much harder task than fighting screaming beasts that will just move forward using their strenght to win.
In that aspect i believe My Humans got a better chance against your humans.
LoTR humans = are used to fighting less smarter and less tactic foes.
ASOIF humans= are used to fight equal or smarter more tactic foes.
If we assume that both our humans are same trained and have the same skills. My humans would atill have the advantage on experience.
2. Tactical arsenal and Dicipline:
This is a point which goes in hand with the ability of the commander to direct thier troops.
As weve discussed before, ASOIF is more realistic. While Tolkien focuses on his mythical creatures and adding that Magical touch to his novels, Martin focused on the battlefield and making those well detail battle scenarios.
Thats why i can give you exact accurate numbers about my troops as well. You on the other hand have to speculate a lot on the number of troops.
In a similar way, Martin was able to well portray the different tactics and how well diciplined the different human races are.
I can definetly trust that my armies will do the required job on the field.
The Lannister army for instance. Tywin Lannister made sure they were well trained on the different war tactics.
I dont doubt that my armies will be able to effectively siege or protect castles. I dont doubt that on the field they will be able to effectively carry out the various war tactics and maneuvers. Cause the Book has portrayed them like that.
Not the same can be said about LoTR. Tolkien was never that specific in his wars as Martin was.
3. ASOIF wide variety and better trained soldiers in some cases (I managed to find some instances in where some of my armies would be better trained and do better on the field than yours. I had to go read a couple of my books again)
Again, Martin did an exceptional job at describing the different wars and portraying the different Armies in his book. This manages to give readera a better understanding about the various houses and armies.
I can without a doubt give you some instanes in where my troops will be superior than yours.
1. The Unsullied Army: As i said, Martin made a more realistic world. The Unsullied would represent the Spartans or USA Marines in this case.
I know for sure that no human army of LoTR is better trained than the Unsullied. These army was trained since they were kids. They were put to the hardest mental, physical, and spiritual conditions. These is well explained in Martins books. I doubt any LoTR army has this kind of training.
2. The Dothraki Horselords: Similar to the Unsullied these tribes are trained to master horse ridding since they were babies. No LoTR Cavalry would match them on the field. Not even infantry would dare fight them on open field.
Again Martin was very explicit at describing ASOIF races.
Lord Tywin and King Robbert himself both claim several times that no army could stand against Dothraki on open fields.
3. The Iron Fleet: If the lands arent safe, the seas wont be any safer. For those who die may never die again.
The Iron Fleet would not let a Single vessle a float! Just like the Dothraki, the Greyjoy's Army train their sailors since they are kids! They are masters of the waters. Martin also portrayed this army in an excellent way.
All of these last points arent based on speculation but on the book's description of the various armies.
I dont doubt that for instance the elfs might be better than my land forces. But since their numbers are very low they wont make much of a difference in the long term
I took my time elavorating this points. I went and open my books again.
When you reply just quote and reply. Dont cut and write in between. Its easier for me to read. Please.
Last edited by Josh_Alexander on Sep 14th, 2017 at 04:51 PM
Gender: Male Location: Punching you in the throat.
#1: I answer this, by pointing to Gothmog, who ousted the Gondorian armies out of all their strongholds along the Ithilien, before outmaneuvering and taking Osgiliath by stealth. This is in the movie.
This proves that the orcs do have strategy, especially the Morannon and Morgul veterans and their captains.
On top of this, we see the use of siege tactics by both Isengard Uruk-hai, and by the legions of Mordor.
And then there's the experience. Gondor has been fighting these armies, Rhun, Khand, Harad and Mordor for five, thousand, years. They have a standing force of highly trained and experienced solders by necessity. Westeros doesn't have a standing army as per Joffrey's lamentation. He says this in the show. And a few other times people have said "clading a man in leather jerkin and giving him a pike doesn't make him a soldier" I believe Robb Stark said that. Now, earlier, I gave you a link to what levies are. Did you read it?
#2: This point has been debated to death, and you are using Tolkien's lack of specifics as theatrics as an excuse to downplay aspects of military forces that have to content with supernatural forces and high magic far more often. This doesn't even need addressing, as I already addressed it earlier. You never had a counter for what I gave you about Sauron, none at all. And the others are all almost as effective. Also, again, Gothmog.
#3: Hah, np. not better trained. Not against the heirs of Numenor, nor are they better trained than those from Rhun. I'd say they are better trained that those from Khand, or Harad, but that's not saying much.
Gondorian soldiery are heirs of Numenor, who are legit superhuman. They are also all clad in plate armor and mail. Something that is a rarity for all but the wealthiest westerosi force, and unlike say Lannister levies or even the few proffessional soldiers they have, Gondorian armor is made of the craftsmanship preserved out of Numenor. Then we have the Dol Amoroth Swan Knights, the Axemen of Lossarch, the Clansmen of Lamedon, and the Blackroot Vale Archers who were said to be almost as good as the Elven bowmen of Murkwood (Legolas' homeland) And those are just Gondor's feifs. I havn't touched on Rohan at all, I havn't touched on the Dunedain Rangers either, nor the Woses Warriors, and those are just the forces of living men...
And to answer your challenge these people have been doing this a long god damn time, they are trained by very experienced soldiers from incredibly young ages to be soldiers. You may think of orcs as rabble, but if that was all they were, then you really do not understand how they work. They are only rabble when they are away from Sauron and his most loyal servants gaze for any length of time. When organised under say gothmog, or a Nazgul, or a proxy like Saruman, they are incredibly dangerous when guided, and because of their numbers, they make convenient cannon fodder infantry that cares nothing for the loss of numbers. In a way, that makes them a more dangerous form of your Wights. because unlike Wights, orcs can fight intelligently.
Remember point by point. We are not discussing the Weighs yet.
1.Am not saying orcs are completly stupid beasts. They do have a sense of basic warfare. But you and me should agree that they arent complex in their atracks.
Orcs may have some battle tactics bu they are nowhere near to the tactics seen in ASOIF troops.
Good point. The way they sieged that castle is evident that they have little to no strategy in war.
For instance, this is what i believe the Lannister Army would have done:
1. They wouldnt have charged the castle but instead wait for them to get out of food.
2. Elfs wouldnt have been able to hit them since they would possibly be out of arrow range or would have use their longshields to cover themselves.
3. They would have sent spies to cover their backs. The orcs arent smart enough as to do this. Rohan's cavelry basically caught them off guard.
Again Dark. Am not saying that my levies are better trained. Am saying they have more battle tactics at their disposal.
In the field my humans would have that advantage over yours. Your troops have NEVER fought against good strategic and tactical enemies. They are used to fight savage orcs with little knowladge on battle strategies or tactics.
You claimed to have played Strategy Games. You should know how formidable a good tactical and strategical army can be.
2. Yes Tolkien's way of depicting his war's AFFECTS you greatly.
1) You are never given numbers of troops in the books.
2)Tolkien NEVER depicted well ELAVORATE strategies/tactics/traps in his battles. Martin depicted his armies as VERY tactic and strategic in his books. Reason WHY i know for sure that my troops would outsmart yours on the field (I should win my point above)
3. No. These troops i gave you IK are better trained than yours in their respective areas.
in this case George R R Martin made an excellent JOB at depicting how well trained these various humans were.
Tolkien lack of Specifics makes you lose this point.
No they arent SUPERHUMAN else they wouldnt be human at all. Makes no sense; i cant give you that.
If Orc Swords can harm them i dont see why My troops wouldnt be able to do so.
Aragorn can cut through shields, deflect arrows, withstand trolls and uruk-hai strength in sword duels, and cut through armies. Jaime Lannister killed three guys before being subdued by Robb Stark's bodyguard, and has no noticeable strength or speed feats.
The Red Witches have no particularly impressive magic. Melisandre requires quite a bit of prep to spawn a single shadow assassin, which is the most impressive magic they've done. Gandalf can shatter mountainsides fighting balrogs, blind entire armies with his light, and actually, you know, use fire in combat.
For one thing, orcs have access to bows, explosives, and other such equipment. The wights fight only with melee weapons. They don't even have archers lul.
Oh, and LotR's army of the dead is much more formidable.
Show them counteracting magic of Sauron's magnitude.
Also, Sauron wasn't killed by having his fingers slashed in the books. I understand that you're a stupid retard, but remember that the books are used in this thread.
That one dragon is much more powerful than the three dragons in GoT, and more importantly, no, counting the books there are more dragons.
Sauron can handle all of that by himself tbh. No army needed.
Smaug would kill all three of Daenerys' dragon and her entire army tbh.
The Silmarillion isn't a collection of stories from the past. It's the history of the setting, completely canon.
As opposed to these, which really are just legends that could easily be bullshit.
You think Brandon will be able to build a second wall in the middle of a war? You really are retarded.
The funny part is that, even if all that is true, Melkor alone would destroy those mythical beings.
Might as well. LotR still wins.
I have no personal problems my man, you're just a stupid idiot.
I hate whe they cut the quotes and write in between. Makes it harder to read and makes your reply look bulky. Please just quote me and answer so i can read it better. Please.
Okay first of all! Jaime is a master swordsman, not an idiot! Jaime was ambushed by Robb! Jaime isnt a senseless dude who wont admit defeat. And it would do you well to remember that before being captured he killed two well train dudes as easy as pissy!
Youd have placed Aragon in his place and the outcome would have BEEN THE SAME!
Put Jaime instead of Aragon and he would have also faced Orcs and Trolls!! They are brute beasts with no sword training not battlefield strategy! The onlu thing orcs have is Strenght! So dont come and tell me Aragon is so mighty by slaying a few barbaric creatures!
Lol. Melissandre is just ONE red priest. ASOIF have several and even some better prepared. Gandalf's light was used to repel the Nargul, and doesnt necessary means it blinds people! Gandalf isnt immortal, he will die once his army is defeated on the field.
Sauron COULD BARELY handle Unprepared and outnumbered armies, i doubt he can even do something against a prepared strong army! Sauron is overrated.
Smaug would die before he even gets close to the dragons. Our scorpions would obliterate him, plus our Dragons are more,.Dont get carried by fanatism
The silmarlion is cannon but it isnt of concern to this Thread. Stop falling out of context!
Focus on the thread! I care less about what happened in the past!
Thanks for continue the obsene language, You have just proven your lack of education. Consider yourself reported.