Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Was that meant to hurt my feelings?
But no, I'm quite afraid he's right on the ball about statement subjectivity. Just because one blog says one thing, doesn't make it true. Especially in light of actual sources on characters involved.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
I'll get to Ziggy's post in about and hour or two, but what other reason, besides personal bias and lack of exposure from Malak, is there to disregard the quote?
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
In the case of the quote on hand, we have another quote from a primary source declaring pre-prime Kun > pre-novel Vitiate. Obviously contradicting the blog.
People are claiming that the quote is liable for being published at a time when Vitiate didn't exist. Yet the logic for that comes from a WOTC writer clarifying the content of their blogs and sourcebooks.
Tales of the Jedi is not a sourcebook, not a WOTC product, and the author of the series, Tom Veitch, has clarified that Kun is within the tier of his other major antagonist: DE Palpatine.
Tom's statements are far more relevant in regards to Kun than an irrelevant opinion on lesser sources with no connections to the character.
Therefore, Malak's quote ain't holding its own. Especially once feats and scaling come into play.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
AP agreed because I perceive that he is a fan of Kun. It is obvious he would then agree with any argument for him, let alone a logical, well constructed one.
That said, twotter took care of my reply, so there.
And no, there are "multiple" quotes for Kun reaffirming his superiority to Novel Vitiate, not just one like Malak, and as far as using authorial intent is concerned, as AP said, Veitch has proclaimed Kun to be in the league of DE Sidious( which is pure bullshit, but then again, so is Malak>>>Kun, or even Malak>Kun).
Using a singular quote, from a source which has given nonsensical quotes before, against multiple quotes from various sources backed by the same author intent as yours is, makes it rather obvious that you are the one biased here. Not that it wasn't obvious from the onset.
Mainly because I didn't respect the validity of novel blurbs in general, or really saw any reason to - not because I dismissed a source I didn't agree with.
Given Leeland Chee's statement on novels blurbs, I was absolutely right not to take it as gospel, so I have absolutely no idea where this line of ad hominem is supposed to accomplish. I have no bis against Kun, and I damn sure don't care about a lame-o who wears dick capes like Malak.
Exar has better showings than Malak, but feats aren't everything - especially in the face of out-of-universe sources assuring a stance where feats aren't needed.
Obviously. But I figured if Malak is far more powerful on the nexus, off it, he would at least be in Exar ballpark. Also, the Corsair is less of an amping of the conventional sense and more of a device that requires Force energies to activate its star busting effects.
The Talzin point is fair, tho, even off nexus she is capable of changeling Mace Windu, and sources have proclaimed she can go toe-to-toe with Sidious, with no mention of a Dathormir, IIRC.
The Mace quote is in question, for me at least because:
- Revan was never a Master [only a Knight] and the quote explicitly states Jedi Master
- Revan never actually walked the hall of the same Jedi Temple as Revan did
With that said, if you can argue around those two facts in a satisfactory way, I'd have no choice but to concede
If we started picking and choosing which sources we like or didn't like off of re-conceived bias, we might as well shouldn't use source books statements at all, tbh. Statement debating is boring and less challenging surely, but there isn't anything wrong with following canon material.
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Last edited by Deronn Solo on Sep 13th, 2017 at 09:07 AM
So the validity of a hardback summary marketing a rather quintessential book in EU literature, revered by the publishing behemoths as the best Star Wars publication to date, is somehow less valid than an internet article hyping Darth Malak..? What is the logic here? That Novel blurbs are susceptible to advertisement hyperbole for selling things..? Well... why do you think Wizards of the Coast are allowed to publish Star Wars material in the first instance? Could it be to sell toys and games maybe...? That's just the problem. Every token reason used to dismiss Plaguies' hype can delineated in dismissing this blog too. All I ask is for your standards to remain the same for both.
Lastly, Leland Chee is absolutely right. He claimed that blurbs are licence to subjectivity. But do you really think his opinion will be any different for this little marketing souvenir? Chee is a smart man, based on interviews and AMA's featuring him, I can guarantee you his stance will be the same for both sources. Go ask him.
No no no. I'm talking about the current crusade against the fawning scores of PT fans in general (which can be admirable). The kind of agenda that might lead one to accept an out of universe quote for Malak as decisive evidence to rest a premise on, while rejecting similar quotes for others (i.e; Plagueis). On a side note, the difference here is that Plagueis actually does champion a few showings that might make him more powerful than any Sith before him. The ability to turn Naboo into an Ice world long before his prime is one, and of course, the unbalancing of the Force. While Malak is doing.. precisely what to show powers far greater than Kun or Nadd on the Star Forge? Killing a nameless Jedi with lightning, and choking another two?
I wonder why you think an out-of-universe quote is somehow more binding than events within the source material itself. Generally speaking, feats are defined as things that actually happened in the lore. The vaunted Malak quote on the other hand, is nothing more than an interpretation of those happenings. IE a WOTC blogger looking, perhaps not diligently, at the source material and concluding that Malak beats Kun for some reason. Now, you might have a solid case if the statement was a result of omniscient narration or a character who met both Sith Lords and held Malak in higher regard. But neither of these apply to the quote above, and as we see with the Plagueis quote, not everything written in canon has to be a fact.
Until the star forge amp can be realistically defined, Malak's personal standing next to Kun is mere speculation. It might be reasonable if we didn't have numerous examples of Force users acting well beyond their pay grade within Force amplifying bodies, like the ones listed here, and of course, Kun's own feats and hype destroy the notion of personal parity.
- Revan was never a Master [only a Knight] and the quote explicitly states Jedi Master[/quote]
That would be the L.
If we started picking and choosing which sources we like or didn't like off of re-conceived bias, we might as well shouldn't use source books statements at all, tbh.Statement debating is boring and less challenging surely, but there isn't anything wrong with following canon material.
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Will need clarification on the temple part. Although I don't see why he didn't walk them. And of course, you conceded the first fact, which would have been a technical equitle based on the wording of the quote. As it stands, it would seem that Revan is one of the masters who walked the temple too. So the 'scaling' here regarding Dooku's placement and Malak, however asinine, should be accepted. That is if one's handling of continuity is opening a source, reading a passage, quoting the passage and claiming "That's it, battle has been decided" as if said said quote was a god given fact. But i do seriously think you're more intelligent than that, and would prefer other methodology when arguing.
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“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Ziggy, what's your metric for accepting and/or dismissing certain quotes? I don't see anything contradicting the line of scaling you presented for Dooku, yet you think it's asinine.
A sort of death of the author style embracement of the primary source material above all else, with perhaps Lucas' statements as the sole exception - Star Wars was once his intellectual property and originated from his mind. However, if Leeland Chee regards blurbs - which are still canonical (in legends) - as subjective interpretations of a story or simply marketing hype, then there's sparse reason to treat other out-of-universe quotes differently. So for the quotes themselves, if they're adding something to the continuity, ie; the specifications of Exar Kun's lightsaber, they can be treated as fact. While If a quote is merely commenting on existing material, then it has license to be subjective, as it's the opinion of whoever made the statement at that time - there was never council of mediators within LFL creating power charts or hierarchies. I'm aware that many individuals have decided on quote compilations as their debating bread and butter, and would hound dissenting methodology as blasphemous heresy. So I hope they take pittance when I tell them they're not beholden to different ways of thinking, rather that I'm merely expressing how I think continuity should be handled and to let them know that the idea of quote subjectivity is becoming more popular.
Dude. Exar Kun and Darth Tryanus go to separate planets. One stuns a stadium of tens of thousands of people, including an unknown amount of Jedi(possibly?) keeps them there while fighting the best duelist among the Jedi at the time and wins. The other gets cornered and captured by 30 pirates.
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“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945
Last edited by twotter on Sep 15th, 2017 at 08:08 PM
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Except that it's more than just the personal opinion of someone if it's officially accepted into continuity - there's a difference between statements in canonical sourcebooks and Karpyshyn's personal emails. But I'd like an example of a quote that is "merely commenting on existing material." What exactly do you mean by that? A simple repetition of events, or a statement about someone's power level?
Well, if you put it that way, then sure. But then one could make all sorts of arguments about power differences between mediums and the general inconsistencies in feats. TCW is a show where Force users kinda suck and get seriously challenged by non-Force sensitives. TotJ is a comic book written by the same guy who wrote Dark Empire where Palpatine displays and is credited with Force abilities on a planetary scale, and the creator of both believes Exar Kun to be on the same level, so grandiose displays of power are the norm.
Dooku in TCW would lose to 30 pirates, but in Legends at his best he is going up against the two most powerful Jedi in history, Yoda and Anakin, and holding his own. The same Yoda and Anakin who can wipe away armies with a gesture. How could someone who would lose to 30 pirates not get insta-stomped against literal army busters in a contest of raw Force power? The answer is the difference between mediums.
In Legends, Dooku has displayed the ability to fry multiple people with Lightning at once from multiple different directions at once, deflected his own Lightning, telekinetically grip several large ships and hurl them about from a remote location, and create lightsaber-resistant full body energy fields also from a remote location, all casually. Someone like that would annihilate 30 pirates, lightsaber or not.
In TCW, his Force pushes can at best knock down a group of Pykes to the ground, and the combined might of Anakin and Obi-Wan can at best replicate the showing. The power difference between TCW and classic EU is massive.
If you want to look at Disney Dooku at his lowest, then sure, Kun stomps no contest. Classic EU Dooku is another story entirely, and I don't see any reason to throw those accolades away, given he has many others that put him very high up there, and also his feats are way better. He is consistently portrayed as a Force user of the highest echelons that can give the likes of Yoda pause in a Force battle.
From it's conception, it is literally a writer compiling his research, which is either extensive or wanting, and making an analysis forthwith. That is the process for the majority of outsourced accolades. This describes how we can sift through 1000 publications before finding anecdotes lamenting Malak's force power against the ancients. Once published, it's up to the reader to decide how much credence paid for any given 'canonical' quote. And as we see with the Darth Plagueis blurb, just because something is written in canon, does not mean it's a fact. Because rather than being part of the 'continuity' itself, it's an interpretation of the continuity, and henceforth, has "license to be subjective".
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FYI Az... If I can personally view the action on my Attack of the Clones DVD, I don't need three different fact-file descriptions explaining Dooku vs Yoda. If they're just describing the action from a POV, rather than providing the thoughts of characters on display, then I can make a decent enough analysis myself - or at the very least - choose a quote that describes the events best. Which is why a titanic struggle of powers with neither besting the other is better substituted with the events on-screen accurately described in a different way by the Complete Star Wars Encyclopaedia - Dooku attempting to subdue Yoda with the Force and failing.
So let me ask you Az, are Exar Kun's grandiose displays of power a result of an inconsistent medium (where Force users are generally not busting armies and are regularly challenged by solderin) or are they a result of the creator thinking him comparable to the toppest tier of sith and Dooku's certain superior..? You kind of answered the question yourself. Are you also conceding DE Palatine's planetary exposition as something inconsistently high-end..? in spite of claiming him and those attached to him having powers to threaten the entire Galaxy? You don't have to answer that rhetorical dig at you, because we both know the answer.
Lets make it simple then. The feat I mentioned above for Kun has Dooku severely outclassed in all mediums. The fact that you can't scrounge a showing For Dooku of comparable nature, despite his coverage being 100 times as many sources, is telling. The ability to throw objects in Yoda's direction and have precisely nothing happen to the little fella doesn't count either. The reverse scale that attributes Anakin and Yoda's 'army busting' feats also amounts to little as well. Dooku's respective relationships to them both, is as an inferior. Inferior to Anakin to the point where the latter can simply decide to win a duel when unrestrained. And inferior to Yoda by the Lucas/Gillard tier system - a richter scale seismometer difference - which means he barley lasts 40 seconds agasint him in a duel and the gap between their powers can't be bridged with a planetary Nexus either. The best case you can make is that Anakin has some feat in the Clone Wars micro-series to benefit Dooku. This feat of course, would have to beat Kun's stasis-field over a - rather conservative estimate - of 50,000 people in the stadium (based on dimension scaling it's more likely 100,000 + click me and cick me ). The contemptuous ease of the feat and the fact he can have a full fledged duel while maintaining it, as part of the equation too.
Confirmed. Dooku's best showings on Korirban are maybe better than Spirit Kun's (Kyp excluded) but probably not. Outside of Korriaban however, none of this necisarily means he can't be captured by 30 pirates surrounding him. It just means he might not be able to use his powers quick enough to subvert their weaponry and omnidirectional position without getting shot. This isn't actually too far off from a lot of sources in legends, so no need to be concerned. It simply means Exar's powers are more efficient on top their grander scope.
Desperately trying to cast TCW/Dark Disciple Dooku as an unusable entity, is doing what for your case exactly? And just throwing equivocating words like classic and [/i]EU[/i] isn't a nuanced enough plea to exclude the most pivotal portrayal of Dooku (outside of the movies) as an inconsequential blight on the character. For starters TCW is part of the EU. Before the split, it was considered "T-canon", so higher than C canon. Lucas himself commented on how he wanted a the action to be far more toned-down than the micro series from 2003. Because he didn't like the idea of Force users destroying entire droid battalions when so many of them struggled on Geonosis. And really, more sources from the EU are comparable to TCW than Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. Comparing their best feats respectively, Tyranus might as well be losing to 30 pirates when it comes to Kun, and he is.
He's consistently described and portrayed as Force user of the second highest echelon. By all accounts. Someone who can be reasonably challenged by two dark-side adepts like Ventress and Savage. A false analysis of Yoda vs Dooku and a connect-the-dots quote chain does not change that.
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“We defeated the wrong enemy” - General George S. Patton, Berlin 1945
Sep 12th, 2017 11:57 PM
