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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Sidious Choking Dooku


Did Dooku resist Sidious's Force choke or not?
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He resisted it. 5 29.41%
He didn't. 12 70.59%
Total: 17 votes 100%
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Sidious Choking Dooku
Started by: UCanShootMyNova

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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Also, it's not that Dooku is retarded and thinks he's about to die, it's that a Sidious just told Dooku that he's going to punish him with a fate worse than death (i.e. the price of failure).


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 12:52 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Yeah because an automatic physical reaction and a willful act of defiance are completely mutually exclusive. :/


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 12:52 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, it's not that Dooku is retarded and thinks he's about to die, it's that a Sidious just told Dooku that he's going to punish him with a fate worse than death (i.e. the price of failure).


Where has "the price of failure" been indicated to be "a fate worse then death?"


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 12:53 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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Resisting someone when you're already in a chokehold isn't the same as doing it before a chokehold. That Sids choked Dooku itself is not a valid indication he's vastly more powerful.

Regardless, you could well argue for the holistic intent of the scene here to show that ids is much greater Dooku. That AOTC Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku says nothing about what ROTS Yoda or Sidious could do.

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 12:58 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Assuming there is a formidable gap between AotC Yoda and RotS Yoda... Which I don't.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 12:59 AM
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SunRazer
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It's not hard to believe. A lot of quotes suggest Yoda and Tyranus were relatively close both in the Force and in sabers in AotC. By RotS, Yoda's matching someone who is an entire level above Dooku in sabers and who scares the Count shitless as a hologram.

There's even quotes directly saying that Yoda's fighting a completely different beast in Sidious than in Dooku. Given both fights were quite close, I think it's clear that Yoda improved. And that can be rationalised by stuff like him being prompted to hone his skills to a greater degree with the reemergence of the Sith, his meeting the Force Priestesses and increasing study of the Living Force, etc.

Last edited by SunRazer on Sep 18th, 2017 at 01:04 AM

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:01 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yeah because an automatic physical reaction and a willful act of defiance are completely mutually exclusive. :/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDeg7K9NrCw&t=035s

Yeah, I'm not buying this is purely instinctual, lmfao.

If Dooku is actively not resisting to avoid future punishment, I'd imagine seeing Dooku attempting to move his hands to his side, not increasing claw at his neck for breath.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:05 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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@Nova: That's not unreasonable to assume. I guess I just don't believe the gap between AotC and RotS Yoda is as big as you or Rocky.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:05 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDeg7K9NrCw&t=035s

Yeah, I'm not buying this is purely instinctual, lmfao.

If Dooku is actively not resisting to avoid future punishment, I'd imagine seeing Dooku attempting to move his hands to his side, not increasing claw at his neck for breath.


So you're saying you think Dooku believed physically clawing at his throat would stop a psychic attack from across the galaxy? LMFAO.

Either way clawing at his throat would be a useless movement. He's doing it because he's panicking. It's not a rational reaction.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:07 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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That's not the point. The point is you think Dooku wants to show Sidious he's subservient to him, which is unsupported by the idea of Dooku doing this.

If we want to go the route of purely instinctual defenses, then Dooku should likewise be instinctively resisting him with the Force as well, so that's irrelevant.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:10 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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No, I think Dooku wants to show Sidious he's not going to actively resist the punishment so he doesn't incur worse. Showing pain and shock at the punishment isn't "resisting" it. It's the natural reaction to pain/injury. If Dooku had been stoic while Sidious was choking him that wouldn't only brought on further punishment since Sidious's goal is to show he's dominant and he wants Dooku in a vulnerable/debased state.

Sure. I never said Sidious was incapable of piercing his passive Force defenses ( he would have had to ) to have Force choked him. What I don't agree with is Sidious being able to do this when Dooku is actively resisting him.


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Last edited by UCanShootMyNova on Sep 18th, 2017 at 01:24 AM

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:21 AM
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Rockydonovang
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-> Dark Rendevous, Yoda lets go of his one true attachment in Dooku
-> Season 6, Yoda goes and passes a variety of mental trials including a methaphorical clash with Sidious himself regarding the future of everything he's worked towards and perfects his spirit

With that in mind:
quote:
"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

As Yoda went through massive confontations between AOTC and ROTS, he would have grown more powerful.

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:25 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Sure. I don't think it would have been enough for Dooku giving him a decent fight to Yoda stomping him though.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:29 AM
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Kurk
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Registered: Jul 2015
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Remember in the first edition of the Vader comic when he pins Sheev against the wall? He was stuck like that for a few windows. Only after Vader switched to trying to choke him was Palpatine actually able to resist. And then only after Vader dropped his attack was he free. If Vader, who's clearly inferior to his master at this point, was able to do that why do people make a deal out of Dooku's an hero moment?

Obviously it doesn't take much to get through someone's passive force barriers (if they exist at all in canon) and once you're through, there is very little you can actually do to get out as shown by the Vader comic.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:33 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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Canon functions differently then Legends. Force defenses honestly probably don't even exist.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:36 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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You're missing the point. You conceded Dooku is instinctively "resisting" him in the form of physically clawing for breath.

Why would Dooku not be instinctively defending himself via the Force too if he's not in a rational state, as per yourself?

Why would Dooku have control over his powers but not his body in this situation?

---

I'll outline my thoughts toward you, again, since it seems you're some how still baffled.

If there is reason for me to believe Dooku is just allowing Sidious to choke him, then I would believe it.

The premise is not remotely indicated in the actual material - it's fully submerged in the territory of an unsupported theory.

---

Dooku actively trying to resist Sidious is supported three-fold.

1.) Sidious, while choking Dooku, tells him that Dooku had failed him many times in the past and that he knows the price of failure. The only direct logical continuation of this is that Sidious is telling Dooku that he's about to die - or worse, which, when considered the character of Sidious and how Episode 6 portays him, is clearly "the price of failure." Dooku's preconceived importance is irrelevant if Sidious is telling Dooku he's about to execute him. Sidious spares Dooku, though, meaning his threat applies if Dooku fails to fix the Sifo-Dyas crisis. When considered, if Sidious is effectively telling Dooku it's punishment time, or in other words death, Dooku is going to be trying to avoid this fate.

2.) Dooku is visibly clawing to escape. The premise that Filoni wanted to show Dooku being subservient to Sidious and yet still put in animation of Dooku grasping his neck is... illogical. One should always consider the intent of the scene, in which it's clear to me that, if Filoni wanted to show what you're trying to argue, he wouldn't have done it the way he did, regardless of instinctual reactions.

3.) If Dooku is instinctively reacting physically, why the hell would he not be instinctively reacting via the Force? Dooku would be pushing against Sidious or doing whatever he can to escape instinctively, since you even noted he's not thinking logically at the minute - just out of pure self-preservation (hence the clawing at neck).

Frankly, I'm not sure why you even care I have this stance. Vader was capable of pinning Sidious to a wall and Sidious wasn't able to escape. In Canon, it's incredibly difficult to escape a Force attack when it's applied on you anyhow. This doesn't make Dooku look any less impressive, although the scene clearly wants to portray that Dooku is Sidious' *****. I understand you don't care for authorial intent - well you do but mostly only when it suits you - but I do, so clearly my stance on this is going to be rooted under that premise. It should be noted I'm not even trying to persuade you on the matter, so your earlier post over how you don't care about author intent baffles me unless you think I should change my own viewpoints since you personally disagree with them. Not to mention, you clearly have a biased toward Dooku in this situation.

Try not to respond to this individually. Hell, I don't care if you don't respond at all. But if it's a long response I doubt I'll respond back in-detail.


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Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 01:45 AM
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UCanShootMyNova
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That's one possibility. He may also be exaggerating the severity of his reaction in an effort to keep Sidious from doing worse.

Because an active attempt to resist a Force attack takes concentration and an active assertion of will.

---

The reason being that Dooku doesn't want to incur further punishment or be viewed as a threat by Sidious.

---

1.) That's assuming that Sidious is referring to the price of failure he's meted out to other individuals and that that "price" was death. An unsupported assertion on your part. Even if your assumption were correct we'd have to assume Dooku thought he was receiving the punishment rather then a simple warning, as was the case. For the reasons I've already listed, that wouldn't make sense given the important Dooku believes he has to Sidious.

2.) Dooku visibly clawing at his throat is an automatic reaction to having pressure applied to it. Logically, he understands that physically clawing at his throat won't alleviate the pressure so him carrying out this action doesn't contradict with his desire to appear subservient before Sidious. In fact it actively supports it since he's debasing himself in that manner in front of him. If Dooku had given no reaction Sidious would have likely viewed this as an act of defiance. I.E. Dooku indicating that the punishment was something insignificant or of little consequence. As I said before, I don't care about your fan interpretation of the author's intent.

3.) Because resisting a Force attack takes an active assertion of will.

Canon and Legends are not the same. Passive Force defenses aren't even shown to exist within Canon.

I honestly don't care about authorial intent even when it suits my purposes. I'll use it to convince people who do of course, but it doesn't affect my own stances in the slightest.

My positions are based on the logic I use to get to them as I've explained to you on numerous occasions. Stuff like me placing Malak above Kun should make that pretty evident.

Too late for that. Should've prefaced that at the start.


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Last edited by UCanShootMyNova on Sep 18th, 2017 at 02:25 AM

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 02:22 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
TBecause an active attempt to resist a Force attack takes concentration and assertion of will.


No, it doesn't. For example, when Luke tried to probe Kyp's mind, he was blasted a dozen feet back without Kyp realizing what he had done.

quote:
1.) That's assuming that Sidious is referring to the price of failure he's meted out to other individuals and that that "price" was death. An unsupported assertion on your part. Even if your assumption were correct we'd have to assume Dooku thought he was receiving the punishment rather then a simple warning, as was the case. For the reasons I've already listed, that wouldn't make any sense.


I'm glad you follow.

quote:
2.) Dooku visibly clawing at his throat is an automatic reaction to having pressure applied to it. Logically, he understands that physically clawing at his throat won't alleviate the pressure so him carrying out this action doesn't contradict with his desire to appear subservient before Sidious. In fact it actively supports it since he's debasing himself in that manner in front of him. If Dooku had given no reaction Sidious would have likely viewed this as an act of defiance. I.E. Dooku indicating that the punishment was something insignificant or of little consequence. As I said before, I don't care about your fan interpretation of the author's intent.


... the ****?

I thought we had a talk about mental gymnastics and how, sometimes, it's better to just agree rather than sitting at your computer screen for thirty minutes trying to think of a possible rebuttal and then somehow coming out with a hilariously far-fetched one?

It's not "fan interpretation of author's intent" to assess that Filoni didn't have all of that running in his mind when making the sequence.

quote:
3.) Because resisting a Force attack takes an active assertion of will.


Wrong.

quote:
Canon and Legends are not the same. Passive Force defenses aren't even shown to exist within Canon.


Instinctual defenses and passive Force defenses are not the same thing.

quote:
Too late for that. Should've prefaced that at the start.


You should always read the post before you respond to it. erm


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sep 18th, 2017 at 02:37 AM

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 02:31 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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This isn't needed, Dooku isn't breaking out of the grip of a more powerful force user when he's struggling for breath.

The scene's only worth something if we argue for holistic intent.

Old Post Sep 18th, 2017 02:35 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
This isn't needed, Dooku isn't breaking out of the grip of a more powerful force user when he's struggling for breath.

The scene's only worth something if we argue for holistic intent.


Even more so, a significantly superior Force user can't even break free from a grip of a significantly inferior one.

Again, take Vader and Sidious or Ventress and Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Syndicate was just mad I had a different opinion than his, although, like I said before, it doesn't really matter.


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