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Did Islam take a wrong turn?
Started by: Lestov16

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Scribble
Pyramid

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By the way, are we going to discuss the historical changes in the system of Islam, or just make this another **** The Mussies thread? Because there are actually plenty of those already.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 12:54 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
Well, I mean this was in the 13th Century, so maybe we can cut Genghis a tiny bit of slack. Maybe. He was a shifty **** though.


It was a different time, true. I call that the "Margaret Sanger syndrome".


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 12:54 PM
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YousufKhan1212
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
Anyone who thinks that Islam is entirely barbaric should research the Golden Age of Islam. Modern medicine, hospitals, mathematics, education, politics, philosophy, architecture; the Golden Age of Islam was an incredibly important and influential part of human history. Sick people got treatment regardless of class, gender or religion, religious freedom was permitted, anyone could attend university so long as they could support themselves through their studies. In fact, the oldest university in the world that still hands out degrees is from the GAoI, in Morocco, I believe (might be wrong there).


Then that ****er Genghis Khan came in, sacked Baghdad, destroyed the complex political systems in place, and from there rose the prevalent form of Islam found in the middle east today, which came from the literalist and fundamentalist side of Islam.


So basically, if you want someone to blame for Islamic terrorism, blame Genghis.


No, you don't want to blame Genghis, you want to blame Muhammad who himself was a savage terrorist.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 02:12 PM
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Scribble
Pyramid

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
No, you don't want to blame Genghis, you want to blame Muhammad who himself was a savage terrorist.
The Genghis thing was a joke.


That being said, whilst the origins of Islam are undeniable, that doesn't refute the fact that Islam was, in its golden age, progressive and accepting. Those days are long gone, though.


By the way, where in the north are you from? I lived in Leeds up until just recently


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 02:37 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
By the way, are we going to discuss the historical changes in the system of Islam, or just make this another **** The Mussies thread? Because there are actually plenty of those already.


You want to see something depressing?



It's a rebel media video, but the depressing part is the video within the video.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 03:19 PM
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Nibedicus
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Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, and at Albuquerque no less.


That turn is very treacherous.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 03:24 PM
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Scribble
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Iran pre-revolution is probably the most fascinating (and depressing) one. Obviously things weren't perfect with the Shah, in fact they were pretty bad, it was still a dictatorship and political dissidence was ruthlessly expunged. But you know, at least women could like, walk about places, if they wanted to, and choose their own clothes and stuff.


(((Just a quick point, the second sequence of that video has clearly taken the very worst stuff they could, whilst the first sequence used the best footage they could. There is still a vast difference between the time periods, but the video is using exaggeration and pathos to sell their message here. But what else can you expect from Rebel Media?)))


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Last edited by Scribble on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 03:30 PM

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 03:27 PM
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Surtur
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I will grant you that it is the worst and best, but it still gives you an idea of what has been stripped away.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 03:35 PM
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Scribble
Pyramid

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Yeah, all you need to see are pictures of pre-revolution Iran and the message gets across imo


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 03:37 PM
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Surtur
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Indeed it looks like a place one might actually like to go.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 03:38 PM
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ArtificialGlory
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Islamism is bad for you. Don't do Islamism, kids.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 04:17 PM
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YousufKhan1212
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
The Genghis thing was a joke.


That being said, whilst the origins of Islam are undeniable, that doesn't refute the fact that Islam was, in its golden age, progressive and accepting. Those days are long gone, though.


By the way, where in the north are you from? I lived in Leeds up until just recently


Oh OK. I was only talking about Muhammad's lifetime.

I'm from Lancashire.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:10 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Islamism is bad for you. Don't do Islamism, kids.


Like super duper bad. No booze. No bacon. What a horrible way to live. A tragedy.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:16 PM
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YousufKhan1212
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Like super duper bad. No booze. No bacon. What a horrible way to live. A tragedy.


It's worse than Zak Snyder.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:17 PM
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Surtur
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Do you guys think if time travel was a thing and Muhammad traveled to the current era and he tried a bacon cheeseburger would he just be all "f*ck Islam, f*ck that shit" ? I think maybe he would. But then he'd regret it because with the acceptance of bacon comes accepting you don't bang child brides.

Poor guy sad


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:19 PM
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Sable
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thorne
it took a wrong turn by being a fake religion


Yup it started with Mohammed a peadofile.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:31 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sable
Yup it started with Mohammed a peadofile.


In the modern era big M would either be a Hollywood star or he'd work in the IT department for the DNC lol.


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Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 07:35 PM
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Re: Did Islam take a wrong turn?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lestov16

Basically, the article discusses the competing philosophers of two influential Muslim philosophers, and how Ibn Rushd's rationalist views were ignored by Al Ghazali's sharia beliefs, and how that effected the secular development of both Islam and Christian Europe. I thought this would be a good article for those wondering why Islam is so dogmatic. [/B]


Critics of al-Ghazali argue that he challenged philosophers on the grounds that the philosophers could not lay down rational explanations for metaphysical arguments.

However, interesting discoveries in the second half of the twentieth century by historians of science challenged many of the assertions of this classical narrative. An example of such discoveries is the strong connections between Ibn al-Shatir, a famous Damascene astronomer of the fourteenth century, and the Renaissance astronomer Copernicus (Roberts, 1957).

If Ghazali had killed science in Islam in the twelfth century, then al-Shatir's work from the fourteenth century could not have been so influential on Copernicus's work. Saliba challenges almost all of the major tenets of the classical narrative on the basis of (1) a critical examination of historical evidence, some of which is quite recent, and (2) the results of his own long-term research in Islamic astronomy.

First, the European paradigm of conflict between religion and science does not really apply to the Islamic world. The religion of Islam encourages rational and scientific inquiry. Therefore, Muslims see no insurmountable contradictions between their faith and natural laws. Hence, studying religion and studying natural sciences does not create a conflict for Muslims.

Secondly, many of the scientists in the Islamic world were also religious authorities at the same time. A few examples among such scholars are Ibn al-Nafis, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi ,and Ibn al-Shatir who lived in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries and made important contributions to such diverse scientific disciplines as mathematics, astronomy, medicine, physics and philosophy. In fact, these scholars were regarded primarily as religious figures by the general public with side interests in sciences. Early Muslim scholars did not hesitate to acquire scientific knowledge wherever they could find it, whether it be in Indian civilization, in Greek civilization, or in Persian civilization. Not only did they acquire these sciences through translation, but they also critically examined them in a comprehensive way. Making corrections and improvements and even introducing new disciplines, they showed a high degree of ownership and maturity. This led to a remarkable period of creativity and rapid advancements in many scientific disciplines in the Islamic world beginning as early as the eighth century (Saliba, 2007).
quote:

Contrary to the classical narrative, scientific advancements in the Islamic world did not stop or even slow down after Ghazali. Saliba gives many examples of sophisticated scientific achievements in the Islamic world well after Ghazali. Based on his life-long research in the area, he concludes that the golden age of Islamic astronomy was in the post-Ghazali period from the thirteenth to the sixteenth century. Discoveries by Western historians of science in the second half of the twentieth century show that there are surprisingly strong connections between Copernicus (sixteenth century) and Muslim astronomers from the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, such as Nasir al-Din al-Tusi and Ibn al-Shatir (Roberts, 1957; Saliba, 2007). These discoveries were shocking to many in the scholarly community who did not expect to find any transfer of knowledge from the Islamic civilization to Europe in the post-Ghazali period. Unfortunately, this new information has not been sufficiently digested by today's scholars and does not yet generally appear in secondary sources.[Nuh Aydin. Did al-Ghazali Kill the Science in Islam. The fountain magazine. Issue 87(2012)]



Saliba also provides examples from other disciplines, such as medicine, that show that a high level of scientific production took place in more than one discipline in the Islamic world in the post-Ghazali period.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 10:01 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
What could it be about this religion that makes it so backwards?

It isnít a great mystery, lack of political, economic and civil stability causes any nation to crumble, these are the pillars for which any nation needs in order for development and advancement to initiate. Most of these nations were colonialised, their resources shipped back to the metropoles of their day, their infrastructure underdeveloped and masses of their societies left impoverished and without any great foundations from which to develop their nations

The great Western superpowers fulfill these three given criteria, and are successful because of it. Centuries of independence and development, versus budding nations with less than 75 years of independence, is an unfair comparison and a biased one at that.

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by Sable
Yup it started with Mohammed a peadofile.


According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, definition of Paedophile is:

"Pedophile: also spelled PAEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical paedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult."

Indeed, his first wife Khadiga was twice widowed before and was older than him by 15 years. All his wives except Aisha were widows. Therefore, it is evident that Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha was an exception and Prophet did indeed find adult relationship. Prophet also did not have low self-esteem, as it is evident from his his biography.

Harold I. Kaplan et al. (Synopsis of Psychiatry, 5th ed. [Williams and Wilkens, 1988], p. 360) writes:

"In addition to their paedophilia, a significant number of paedophiles are concomitantly or have previously been involved in exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape". (Voyeurism is the recurrent preoccupation with fantasised or acts that involve seeking out or observing people who are naked, or are engaged in grooming or in sexual activity).

It is commonly accepted by Muslims and non-muslims (un-biased) that Prophet in no sense indulged in "exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape" or even came close to it. There is not a single reference to indicate that prophet was involved in any such act. In addition, Prophet waited for Aisha to mature and reach Puberty before the marriage was consummated, this obviously is contrary to the characteristics of a paedophile.
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Betrothal at very young ages was fairly common amongst the gentry in europe as well, consummation was often deferred.

The American colonies in the 17th century have fairly widespread cases of very young marriage down to the age of seven and twelve a century ago was often the age of consent in Western societies, it still is in Japan.

You do have to remember that the odd Western concept of childhood really is a Victorian invention and marriage for most of it's history is a binding economic pact between two families it had little to do with the lovey dovey institution we have today. In Arabic societies it was and still is often the way of settling disputes and making alliances.

For example;
Prince Edward of Wales married the French kingís daughter, Isabella, who was only seven years old and Romanos II married Bertha , the daughter of the King of Italy, when she was only four years old. Richard of Shrewsbury, King Edward IVís son, married the five year old Anne Mowbray of Norfolk

(Pope consent was a prerequisite of the time).

Old Post Sep 22nd, 2017 10:15 PM
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