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Monarch replaces Odin against The Fourth Host of Celestials
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i think the celestials of thor 300 would wreck monarch as easily as they beat the destroyer. later incarnations became much more vulnerable. for years they were viewed as pretty much unbeatable. that changed greatly over time.

Other than Thor 300 which Comic showed them as invincible? X Factor had a shadow of Phoenix Force scare them off, Fantastic Four 400 showed Celestial race and Watcher race stalemating for thousands of years and Exitar getting killed by Invisible Woman etc.

Celestials were one hit wonders.


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Old Post Sep 23rd, 2017 04:20 PM
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leonidas
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everything PRECEDING thor 300. there was even an article written about it somewhere at one point. since then they've been chumps in many cases though marvel seems to want to reinflate their prestige nowadays.


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Old Post Sep 23rd, 2017 05:52 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
everything PRECEDING thor 300. there was even an article written about it somewhere at one point. since then they've been chumps in many cases though marvel seems to want to reinflate their prestige nowadays.

They only appeared in Eternals series before that. What are you talking about?


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 04:38 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
They only appeared in Eternals series before that. What are you talking about?
Irony.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 01:52 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
They only appeared in Eternals series before that. What are you talking about?


what? they were the subject of thor for 15+ issues including at least one annual before 300 came out not to mention the history established for them in eternals. they were shown to be far above the skyfathers. even zuras was an equal to odin and zeus at that time and none of them could do anything at all about the celestials--they were less than insects to them. of course now odin can battle galactus without the destroyer armor and galactus has been shown to be above the celestials--or most of them. against the celestials the armor was powered by EVERY skyfather and still couldn't do jack to even one of them. clearly there is a huge difference in their portrayal. after that 300 issue they weren't even heard from for what, 5 or more years when the beyonder whipped them all down (later retconned as illusion).

my point stands--imo the celestials of that era (c. thor 300) would wreck monarch much more easily than they beat a destroyer powered by every skyfather. later portrayals may suggest otherwise.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 03:54 PM
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Rage.Of.Olympus
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The editorial team responded in the Thor letter pages how the Celestials were the next step in the cosmic order superior to Galactus, the Watchers and other Gods which was what they tried to show in Thor #300.

Only Abhi can know the context of that issue and think Monarch wouldn't get completely and thoroughly stomped. Even if you didn't....too think Monarch would be the Fourth Host? An entire group of Celestials, even with today's showings all included, some that place them thoroughly as Multiversal. Man the amounts of crack* needed to do that....

*Little known fact: The house of El is a recovery clinic for all those poor souls who rolled up old issues of Action comics, cooked them and shot themselves up for that good Superman high.


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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Sep 24th, 2017 at 04:02 PM

Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 03:59 PM
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leonidas
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lol yeah, i agree completely. in the context of that lengthy thor arc, monarch gets obliterated as easily as any or all of the skyfathers would and did. /shrug

i know a read an article about the celestials though, comparing them now and with what they had intended to be initially, but for the life of me a can't recall where.... sad


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 04:12 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
what? they were the subject of thor for 15+ issues including at least one annual before 300 came out not to mention the history established for them in eternals. they were shown to be far above the skyfathers.


The skyfathers were made look bad to promote them. Before Thor 300 they didn't do shit but stand around.
quote:


even zuras was an equal to odin and zeus at that time and none of them could do anything at all about the celestials--they were less than insects to them.


That's quite a big hyperbole. Yes, they defeated Odin Destroyer but it took a combined attack from them to do so.

Thor survived several attacks from them as well.
quote:




of course now odin can battle galactus without the destroyer armor and galactus has been shown to be above the celestials--or most of them.


Contrary to Galactus fanboys Galactus was always skyfather level and around Odin in power.

Which Celestials was Galactus shown above?

quote:


against the celestials the armor was powered by EVERY skyfather and still couldn't do jack to even one of them. clearly there is a huge difference in their portrayal. after that 300 issue they weren't even heard from for what, 5 or more years when the beyonder whipped them all down (later retconned as illusion).


Destroyer was only powered by a portion of power from skyfathers.

Destroyer was only packing punches enough to destroy planets. By the description Thor fanboys tell me for a galaxy Destroyer like Odin that's a big downgrade.
quote:


my point stands--imo the celestials of that era (c. thor 300) would wreck monarch much more easily than they beat a destroyer powered by every skyfather. later portrayals may suggest otherwise.


Celestials beating Odin Destroyer doesn't means they can beat Monarch. Thor was alone chipping Celestial armor and surviving attacks from Celestials. Monarch was killing Supermen across multiverse and no sold 39 captain atoms simultaneously.

Celestials don't win here.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 05:51 PM
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Damborgson
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"But Odun ain't dat speshul"

The leagues above Odin that Monarch would need to be to even challenge the Celestials simply isn't realistic.

Thor damaging them is because he's Thor. Not some level reducing low showing.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 05:58 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The editorial team responded in the Thor letter pages how the Celestials were the next step in the cosmic order superior to Galactus, the Watchers and other Gods which was what they tried to show in Thor #300.


So? Monarch was a legitimate universal power which is more than anything Galactus, Watchers or Celestials can do.

quote:


Only Abhi can know the context of that issue and think Monarch wouldn't get completely and thoroughly stomped. Even if you didn't....too think Monarch would be the Fourth Host? An entire group of Celestials, even with today's showings all included, some that place them thoroughly as Multiversal. Man the amounts of crack* needed to do that....


laughing out loud

So they beat Monarch because they beat Odin?

Here is the raw power of Odin Destroyer on display.

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...9633-0+(28).jpg


The combined power of the skyfathers.

https://static.comicvine.com/upload...05911-38111.jpg

Planetary level only.

BTW, any monitor will shit down Odin's throat worse than Jane did and Monarch scared them all.

quote:


*Little known fact: The house of El is a recovery clinic for all those poor souls who rolled up old issues of Action comics, cooked them and shot themselves up for that good Superman high.


Still crying over beta Odinson, eh? Don't worry, Jane will teach him how to be a hero while Cho spanks him in upcoming issue.


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Last edited by abhilegend on Sep 24th, 2017 at 06:05 PM

Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 06:01 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
"But Odun ain't dat speshul"

The leagues above Odin that Monarch would need to be to even challenge the Celestials simply isn't realistic.

Thor damaging them is because he's Thor. Not some level reducing low showing.

Odin is vastly below the level of Monitors. Monarch made them shit themselves.

Should I start a thread with Monitors and Odin?


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 06:04 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
The skyfathers were made look bad to promote them. Before Thor 300 they didn't do shit but stand around.

That's quite a big hyperbole. Yes, they defeated Odin Destroyer but it took a combined attack from them to do so.

Thor survived several attacks from them as well.


Contrary to Galactus fanboys Galactus was always skyfather level and around Odin in power.

Which Celestials was Galactus shown above?



Destroyer was only powered by a portion of power from skyfathers.

Destroyer was only packing punches enough to destroy planets. By the description Thor fanboys tell me for a galaxy Destroyer like Odin that's a big downgrade.

Celestials beating Odin Destroyer doesn't means they can beat Monarch. Thor was alone chipping Celestial armor and surviving attacks from Celestials. Monarch was killing Supermen across multiverse and no sold 39 captain atoms simultaneously.

Celestials don't win here.


there is sooo much low balling in that group of sentences i'm not even gonna bother. lol you...really don't do yourself a lot of favors sometimes around here my friend. in one thread, AM states flat out, in black and white, that supergirl almost kills him and we see, blatantly on panel, that he is right. maybe she was just being given her final big moment. regardless, it happened. to which you say--'mere words' lol then here, you go out and say the skyfathers were 'made to look bad by writers' to pump up the celestials. please don't tell me you can't see how utterly, transparently and hilariously hypocritical that is? you'll actually flat out, like blatantly, ignore black and white, on panel evidence as presented against a dc character, and to downplay a marvel one you'll resort to crying out about imaginary pis. dude, that's just.... lol

in that arc, they were exponentially more powerful than the skyfathers. crying about the writers doesn't help your case. lowballing what i said about the destroyer being imbued with power from every single skyfather also doesn't help your case. imo that destroyer would completely wreck monarch, without much trouble tbh. that it dwarfed odin in power is more than enough reason for me to make that assumption. obviously you disagree but i just can't continue discussing this with you because i know the lowballing will just irritate me. lol


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 06:23 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
there is sooo much low balling in that group of sentences i'm not even gonna bother. lol you...really don't do yourself a lot of favors sometimes around here my friend. in one thread, AM states flat out, in black and white, that supergirl almost kills him and we see, blatantly on panel, that he is right.

If by being right you mean he kills her in one attack and later survived his suit being destroyed which made him "almost killed", sure.

I'm not doing anything lowballing here. Sorry to burst your bubble if you think Odin is someone special among skyfathers. He is not.
quote:



maybe she was just being given her final big moment. regardless, it happened. to which you say--'mere words' lol then here, you go out and say the skyfathers were 'made to look bad by writers' to pump up the celestials.

In one scene Supergirl punches AM a couple of times who then oneshots and kills her.

In other scene, Odin and combined skyfathers can only muster planetary attacks.

How does either of these correlate, I have no idea at all.

quote:



please don't tell me you can't see how utterly, transparently and hilariously hypocritical that is? you'll actually flat out, like blatantly, ignore black and white, on panel evidence as presented against a dc character, and to downplay a marvel one you'll resort to crying out about imaginary pis. dude, that's just.... lol


Where did I say anything about PIS or whatever?

AM oneshot killed Supergirl after all the hyperbole and shit.

Celestials couldn't even kill Thor after repeated attacks.

Let's go ahead and match pre crisis Kryptoninans with Thor, shall we?

quote:


in that arc, they were exponentially more powerful than the skyfathers. crying about the writers doesn't help your case. lowballing what i said about the destroyer being imbued with power from every single skyfather also doesn't help your case. imo that destroyer would completely wreck monarch, without much trouble tbh. that it dwarfed odin in power is more than enough reason for me to make that assumption. obviously you disagree but i just can't continue discussing this with you because i know the lowballing will just irritate me. lol


A planetary power aka Destroyer as shown in Thor 300 is going to wreck a blatantly universal power like Monarch?

Proof of that please.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 06:32 PM
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Insane Titan
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So how does Monarch beats the fourth host then Abhi.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 07:34 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Insane Titan
So how does Monarch beats the fourth host then Abhi.

Just blasting them tends to work fine.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 07:37 PM
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leonidas
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oi....

(a) is a weakening superman prime also a universal level power abhi? because monarch could definitively NOT beat him.

(b) you think monarch beats, say, imperiex (a true universal level power) despite how insignificant owaw superman was compared to him...?

then i could go into the fact that you've said multiple times sundipped superman>superman prime so that must mean sundipped superman is also a universal level power? greater since he's>prime=monarch? see how easy it is to move away from a topic and extrapolate based on things that are only tangential to the debate? and that's completely without taking anything away from any of the above characters....


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 08:16 PM
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Damborgson
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
there is sooo much low balling in that group of sentences i'm not even gonna bother. lol you...really don't do yourself a lot of favors sometimes around here my friend. in one thread, AM states flat out, in black and white, that supergirl almost kills him and we see, blatantly on panel, that he is right. maybe she was just being given her final big moment. regardless, it happened. to which you say--'mere words' lol then here, you go out and say the skyfathers were 'made to look bad by writers' to pump up the celestials. please don't tell me you can't see how utterly, transparently and hilariously hypocritical that is? you'll actually flat out, like blatantly, ignore black and white, on panel evidence as presented against a dc character, and to downplay a marvel one you'll resort to crying out about imaginary pis. dude, that's just.... lol

in that arc, they were exponentially more powerful than the skyfathers. crying about the writers doesn't help your case. lowballing what i said about the destroyer being imbued with power from every single skyfather also doesn't help your case. imo that destroyer would completely wreck monarch, without much trouble tbh. that it dwarfed odin in power is more than enough reason for me to make that assumption. obviously you disagree but i just can't continue discussing this with you because i know the lowballing will just irritate me. lol


This is a good way of putting it.

To say that the writers are downplaying characters just to make another look good, would effectively render any and all new threat as over inflated PIS ridden nonsense because they're strong only because heroes are being weakened to make them look good.

And the idea that because a character has 'bigger' feats in the past, that there's something less impressive about the celestials utterly no-selling 3 skyfathers, is blatantly stupid. But, you know whatever.

Doomsday and Imperiex probes really aren't that impressive I guess. Because the heroes they beat were being lowballed to make them look good, and this is the truth 100% thumb up


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 08:55 PM
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Insane Titan
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Just blasting them tends to work fine.
laughing out loud Monarch doesn’t have that kind of power to actually put down the Celestials from the fourth host.


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 09:06 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The editorial team responded in the Thor letter pages how the Celestials were the next step in the cosmic order superior to Galactus, the Watchers and other Gods which was what they tried to show in Thor #300.

Only Abhi can know the context of that issue and think Monarch wouldn't get completely and thoroughly stomped. Even if you didn't....too think Monarch would be the Fourth Host? An entire group of Celestials, even with today's showings all included, some that place them thoroughly as Multiversal. Man the amounts of crack* needed to do that....

*Little known fact: The house of El is a recovery clinic for all those poor souls who rolled up old issues of Action comics, cooked them and shot themselves up for that good Superman high.
laughing out loud


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Old Post Sep 24th, 2017 09:28 PM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
oi....

(a) is a weakening superman prime also a universal level power abhi? because monarch could definitively NOT beat him.


You tell me.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
SBP destroyed Earth 15 universe too.

(please log in to view the image)


quote:


(b) you think monarch beats, say, imperiex (a true universal level power) despite how insignificant owaw superman was compared to him...?


They are in same level of power, so maybe.

And OWAW Superman while sundipped wasn't insignificant against Imperiex.
quote:


then i could go into the fact that you've said multiple times sundipped superman>superman prime so that must mean sundipped superman is also a universal level power? greater since he's>prime=monarch? see how easy it is to move away from a topic and extrapolate based on things that are only tangential to the debate? and that's completely without taking anything away from any of the above characters....


And you're using circular logic to tell us how they are not that powerful.

Sundipped Superman overpowered Brainiac 13's Warworld empowered by Imperiex and was stated to kill Worloggog powered Vera Black in one punch. Both are legitimate universal powers.

Don't tell me you fall into the same trap as "it's Superman so he can't be that powerful".

How about Odin dying against Mangog or getting oneshotted by him? Mangog can't be that powerful, right?


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Old Post Sep 25th, 2017 04:12 AM
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