I'm not sure a term like "holding back" or "all out" applies to a form he doesn't even understand enough to discribe, much less control.
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Agreed. At his current state with the form. I mean there was obviously a clear difference in expression during the last few attacks vs his calm expression throughout the whole fight.
The only hit that was landed by either was when Goku stepped it up right before the power ran out. (besides the tiny scratch Goku gave Jiren on his face)
Beating the living hell out of KK x 20 Blue Goku was impressive as was holding back the spirit bomb containing the ki of Base Frieza, Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Tien, Roshi and Krillin, but to be honest . . . the boost fusion offers goes way beyond that. It allowed Goten and Trunks to go from struggling with the likes of Android 18 to being on par with Super Buu. Throw in the fact that there's nothing stopping SSB Gogeta from using the Kaioken x 20 or the spirit bomb himself and I'm not really convinced that Jiren stomps when I seriously think about it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if current SSB KKx20 Gogeta were at or above Whis level. At bare minimum, it's a draw since he can teleport both himself and Jiren out the ring the minute Jiren touches him.
But now that I think about it, that's a pretty badass image. KKx20 Final Warp Kamehameha.
Last edited by Dark-Kenshin on Oct 12th, 2017 at 02:07 PM
Gogeta should curbstomp Jiren. Because ssbkk20 Goku made Jiren move, and block, so he could obviously hurt him then, and he's not just tanking Hit's attacks. So Gogeta barring time limit deus ex machina turn back in two seconds cause of too much power, should easily win. And unlike Vegetto, DBZ Gogeta doesn't toy with his opponents. He took Janemba out instantly.
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Jiren went from taking every blow like it was nothing, no effort into moving to block or Dodge, to actively doing so. He's going to be knocked back and moved by Hit. It's basically like Cell letting Vegeta hit him to no avail and being stronger than Goku but needing to actual fight back. Fusion is more powerful than anything Goku can achieve on the fly himself also.
And Jiren was losing to lbGoku, if not for running out of time.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
So you are saying Gogeta can stand in one spot and tank all of Super Saiyan Blue Goku hits. Prove it. Merged Zamasu couldn't even do that.
Losing? When did LB Goku hurt Jiren. Tell me the scene number. Also, again, Jiren isn't even using a portion of his power. Whis even tells us this when he was fighting 20X Goku.
Merged Zamasu isn't in the league of Gogeta...much less the version of Vegetto he fought. And yea, literally the fusion of Goku and Vegeta could sit there and take ANY attack by Goku and Vegeta together at their strongest.
Uhm, LB Goku is the one to land the first hit. And when he realized he was running out of time, after his eyes went to black briefly. It wasn't until LB Goku ran out of energy that Jiren was able to accomplish anything.
Also saying that half of a fusion would destroy the actual fusion is just....I don't understand that..
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Why? Fusions seem to have been nerfed pretty hardcore. Merged Zamasu was more or less equal with Vegito, yet SSBKK Goku was able to hold his own against him.
Merged Zamasu powered up after getting hit around by KK Goku. Furthermore, the manga shows that even base Vegetto is capable of blowing Merged Zamasu in half with a single attack. So yeah, still going with fusion > all.
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Ok, you probably need to refresh my memory on why you are hyping Gogeta. What did he Do???
Lol, landing a lick doesn't mean you damaged your opponent. Jiren didn't have a scratch on him and tanked LB hit like a pro. Show me him damaged after that attack. He tanked it "while holding back".
Ok, we are talking about the last time we seen the showing, not what we THINK they are capable of. We go by that character last showing, not Vegeta and Goku merging right now. It doesn't work like that. I think that is why your argument is all over the place. Now again, Jiren vs the LAST VERSION of Gogeta WE SAW ON PANEL, Jiren destroys him with ease.
Gogeta has NEVER appeared in the series outside of Movie 13, and GT. So I don't know why you keep saying what you saw on panel by him.
Jiren tanked ssj Goku attacks. Tanking a hit means you don't feel it. He obviously felt it, his face when he is kicked. And there is nothing suggesting that Jiren is holding back at all against LB.
ALSO the OP states that it's ToP Goku and Vegeta fusing. So again the last time we seen Gogeta (Which again in canon is never) means zero.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Where's the part where you try to prove that the anime takes precedence over the manga, or the part where this thread is referring to anime only power levels? Because you essentially just relayed basic information. Manga interpretation of fusion is far more consistent with DBZ than the anime showing, so I use the manga in this case.
And you can't equate Goku's spirit bomb against Jiren to Trunks' spirit sword. You have to draw an explicit connection between Jiren's showing against KKx20 SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegetto/powered up!Merged Zamasu. Spirit Sword!Trunks defeating Zamasu just makes the former that good, I guess.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
Sure, but SSJB fusion has appeared in both the manga and the anime. I feel that the manga is more consistent with the original display of fusion than the anime adaptation.
My point is that SSJB KK Goku being able to knock around a visibly flabbergasted Merged Zamasu who wasn't really doing anything doesn't prove that SSJB Vegetto, who was beating on a powered-up Merged Zamasu, is comparable to SSJB KK Goku. For all we know, Zamasu really did power up that much to be able to compete with Vegetto. And Trunks being able to kill Zamasu with the spirit sword could really mean that Trunks with the spirit sword is that strong. Doesn't explicitly contradict the power of fusion.
For what it's worth, I feel the anime power levels in the FT arc are shit, and shouldn't be taken as a concrete indicator of the power of fusion (based on the DBS manga, DBZ, GT, Movie 13, etc).
So what we're left with as an indicator for the power of Gogeta is that kid trunks and goten fusing became about 8x more powerful than Goku. Individually, they were probably hundreds of times weaker than Goku, or at least one hundred times. So that would be something like an 800x boost. There's not really a reason to believe Limit Breaker is an 800x (and likely far higher) boost. SSJB Gogeta pounds.
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Oct 9th, 2017 07:21 PM
Merged Zamasu isn't in the league of Gogeta...much less the version of Vegetto he fought. And yea, literally the fusion of Goku and Vegeta could sit there and take ANY attack by Goku and Vegeta together at their strongest.
