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Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda
Started by: DarthAnt66

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Rockydonovang
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IIRC, Sidious was a tier 10 on that scale

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 05:03 AM
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Darth Thor
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai


As far as Lucas is concerned, you can find his take on the issue on p. 204 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", which still says: ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor[...]". Note the distinguished absense of Anakin from that statement.




Not if you finish the statement he's not.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 09:53 AM
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Ursumeles
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Snoke > all three smile


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Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 09:54 AM
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Darth Thor
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And Rey > Snoke eek!

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 09:59 AM
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playa1258
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Seems like they are going to make Ben, Rey and Snoke superior to the PT/OT characters.

Hoping that's not the case though.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 10:33 AM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And Rey > Snoke eek!


Did you not watch her get telekinetically dominated by Snoke?

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:02 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Did you not watch her get telekinetically dominated by Snoke?



Yeah because that’s where th film ends.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:10 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by playa1258
Seems like they are going to make Ben, Rey and Snoke superior to the PT/OT characters.

Hoping that's not the case though.



No idea where you’re getting that from.

Rey maybe. But no clue where that’s hinted about Snoke and Kylo.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:11 AM
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playa1258
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I'm just good the don't make Luke a ***** to hype up Rey/Kylo.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:16 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by playa1258
I'm just good the don't make Luke a ***** to hype up Rey/Kylo.



Huh? I doubt they’d do that. They’re riding off OT Nostalgia.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:19 AM
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Darth Thor
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^ But it seems Rey is going to be something more powerful than a Skywalker.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:20 AM
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Azronger
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Lucas stated Anakin = Sidious in power. Nai is wrong.


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Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:47 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by playa1258
Seems like they are going to make Ben, Rey and Snoke superior to the PT/OT characters.

Hoping that's not the case though.
I told you this years ago. Many don't want to believe it but it was pretty obvious from the force awakens. Only natural to go bigger in the next trilogy. Next time listen to me, kiddo.


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Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:53 AM
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The_Tempest
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>"distinguished absence"
>yfw the next sentence is about how Anakin would have killed the Emperor if it weren't for Obi-Wan


Which, given the structure of the sentence (if Anakin could have done it anytime throughout ROTS, wouldn't George have said "you need to be Mace, Yoda, or Anakin to compete with the Emperor"?) and the development of the actual story (e.g. Kenobi being established fodder for Sheev but good enough to take on a Anakin in a protracted duel as a plot point that the script explicitly states), most likely speaks to Anakin's eventual ability to defeat Palpatine.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 12:18 PM
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Darth Thor
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^ Point being Nai shouldn't make out Anakin just wasn't mentioned at all. When he clearly was.

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 12:22 PM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
Oh my...

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case. And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

So one might ask, what the point of this thread is? To establish that "Zonakin" might take Sidious, Yoda or Mace down? Who would have guessed...? roll eyes (sarcastic)
thumb up

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 08:19 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
Nope. The "tier system" was created by Nick Gillard and nobody else. You may want to go rewatch the Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary/extras for this. Essentially, when it comes to fights, Lucas input comes down to "they fight" and the desired result. He doesn't concern himself with anything else.


It's stated Lucas worked on them.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

This is from starwars.com, I believe, too. It's not even some offhand interview ten years later.

There's literally no getting around that - sorry bud.

Truly anything you say moving forward will just be met with that quote.

BTW, this is consistent with Lucas also creating tier systems for the OT, as explained in Making Empire Strikes Back.

quote:
As far as Lucas is concerned, you can find his take on the issue on p. 204 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", which still says: ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor[...]". Note the distinguished absense of Anakin from that statement.


The same book says Anakin is the GOAT, I believe, so clearly you're interpretation of that is wrong.

quote:
Not any longer, given how he sold everything to Disney. Furthermore, the EU has been explicitly created to be outside the lines of what Lucas controls and cares about. And if Lucas word was absolute, Anakin got his scar by slipping in the bathtub (Lucas, RotS commentary). Not that it matters: Those words are not coming from Lucas. D'uh.


Disney considers whatever Lucas worked on as Canon as per Pablo just the other day - the tier systems were made by him.

Thus, they're Canon.

quote:
Except: He never made one. Did he? Where is it?


The ten scale one.

quote:
So Gillard happily contradicts himself on the issue? Why then put any faith in stuff he says?


No contradiction present. Different scales of the same idea.

quote:
Good that nobody cares what Nick Gillard has to say. I mean, seriously:

Click me

The guy denied the existence of lightsaber forms as a whole and keeps doing so. He denied the existence of Vaapad. Of course, from his perspective, it's all just "levels" and he designed them all. But canon has established far different takes on the issue, hence why his personal take on the issue means jack shit.


Pablo has said essentially the same thing in recent times.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 10th, 2017 at 11:27 PM

Old Post Oct 10th, 2017 11:22 PM
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Rebel95
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ But it seems Rey is going to be something more powerful than a Skywalker.

**** that. It's starting to look that way though

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 03:03 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rebel95
**** that. It's starting to look that way though



Yeah doesn't really make sense though does it?

How could she have more raw power than Anakin?


I'm still sure she's a Skywalker. If not a direct descendant then some weird experiment like a clone of Luke's hand or summit. But defo of that bloodline.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 09:48 AM
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Nai
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>"distinguished absence"
>yfw the next sentence is about how Anakin would have killed the Emperor if it weren't for Obi-Wan


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Lucas stated Anakin = Sidious in power. Nai is wrong.


What the heck?
Anakin is absent from the list of people that George Lucas thinks can take the Emperor down at the time of RotS. Let Tempest explain it to you (in my defense, which should tell you I'm absolutely correct here):

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which, given the structure of the sentence (if Anakin could have done it anytime throughout ROTS, wouldn't George have said "you need to be Mace, Yoda, or Anakin to compete with the Emperor"?) and the development of the actual story (e.g. Kenobi being established fodder for Sheev but good enough to take on a Anakin in a protracted duel as a plot point that the script explicitly states), most likely speaks to Anakin's eventual ability to defeat Palpatine.


Thanks.

@DarthAnt66:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's stated Lucas worked on them.


It's also stated that Lucas did edit the RotS Novelization word by word, which didn't stop him from shitting all over it with the movie.

quote:

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

This is from starwars.com, I believe, too. It's not even some offhand interview ten years later.

There's literally no getting around that - sorry bud.


Yes. There is:

Those are still just comments by Nick Gillard and not George Lucas with no official "level system" by George Lucas existing. And until we see that somewhere, Nick Gillards incoherent interpretations don't mean anything. Especially not when contradicting words from George Lucas himself, saying that Anakin, as of RotS, can NOT compete with Sidious. End of story.

quote:
Truly anything you say moving forward will just be met with that quote.


I've understood now, that you are a moron. Thanks.

quote:

BTW, this is consistent with Lucas also creating tier systems for the OT, as explained in Making Empire Strikes Back.


Yes. The point is, that we don't have any "tiers" by Lucas published anywhere regarding PT characters. We only have Nick Gillard with his still incoherent references of that "level system". And it still is, pretty much, without consequence for an EU forum.

quote:
The same book says Anakin is the GOAT, I believe, so clearly you're interpretation of that is wrong.


Anakin would have become the GOAT, if Obi-Wan hadn't ended his ascent to that position by chopping of some limbs. As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.

quote:

Disney considers whatever Lucas worked on as Canon as per Pablo just the other day - the tier systems were made by him.

Thus, they're Canon.


Unless they have been published, they are just some obscure reference material, that nobody needs to care about. Have they been published? No?

quote:
The ten scale one.


Oh. You're making a reference to a ten scale system, when Gillard clearly says that even level 9 doesn't exist? But then it does, and you can place people there. But not everytime they fight, because you need to explain away Anakin losing to Obi-Wan.

Yeah. Sounds like a coherent system that can serve as basis for arguments. Not. roll eyes (sarcastic)

quote:

No contradiction present. Different scales of the same idea.


"I'm not going to explain anything. Instead I will make an obscure reference to an obscure source making obscure references to an obscure tier system. And then, I win, right?" roll eyes (sarcastic)

And seriously: You even quoted contradictionary remarks by Nick Gillard (namely the placement of Obi-Wan in that tier system). Laughable.

quote:

Pablo has said essentially the same thing in recent times.


What people say in some interviews is virtually of no consequence when it comes to "being canon". Unless it either printed, filmed or recorded otherwise under Lucasfilm License, it is basically completely meaningless. And given that I don't see the LFL stamp anywhere on that page, where you got the quote from (thanks for NOT providing a source, by the way), I guess, it's still a non-issue. Thank you very much.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 10:42 AM
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