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Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda
Started by: DarthAnt66

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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai

As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.




Well that line of logic (that he canít take out anyone above Obi-Wan) clearly doesnít work given he took out Dooku, who by all accounts was above Obi-Wan.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 11:10 AM
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Azronger
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Registered: Jun 2016
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

-


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 11:52 AM
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Azronger
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
What the heck?
Anakin is absent from the list of people that George Lucas thinks can take the Emperor down at the time of RotS. Let Tempest explain it to you (in my defense, which should tell you I'm absolutely correct here):


Wasn't referring to Lucas' list, mate.

"He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperoróhe was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku."

George Lucas, Rolling Stone 975


He states after getting sliced'n'diced, Anakin, from then on, wasn't as strong as the Emperor, indicating that he previously was. As for why he didn't include Anakin in the list - I don't know. His statement about Anakin's power remains, however.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 11:52 AM
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Haschwalth
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quote:
help him rule the universe.


ok, that's not accurate.

quote:
and burning him up

Last edited by Haschwalth on Oct 11th, 2017 at 12:59 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 12:56 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Haschwalth
ok, that's not accurate.


Um, yes it is. Palpatine planned to expand his dominion beyond the known galaxy to encompass the entire universe.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 01:32 PM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Um, yes it is. Palpatine planned to expand his dominion beyond the known galaxy to encompass the entire universe.


You do know how big the universe is right?

Sidious would of died before he even conquered a different galaxy, let alone several Billion trillion galaxies. At their rate.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 01:34 PM
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NewGuy01
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Palpatine was an ambitious guy.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 01:55 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Haschwalth
You do know how big the universe is right?

Sidious would of died before he even conquered a different galaxy, let alone several Billion trillion galaxies. At their rate.


You do know Palpatine became immortal, right?


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 01:58 PM
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Haschwalth
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
You do know Palpatine became immortal, right?


I don't think George lucas's idea was the same as those writers tbh.
There is a reason they didn't bring Darth Revan/Bane back as spirits in TCW
George didn't see that as his view of the force.

And not really was he Immortal, only Vitiate grade, he didn't pursue Plagueis's work so :/

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 02:11 PM
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NewGuy01
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According to Ian, his part in ROTJ was titled "Emperor of the Universe," so I'm guessing Lucas just uses the term loosely.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 02:27 PM
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YousufKhan1212
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2017
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Not that I'm trying to object to Anakin > Yoda, but Gillard's system seems to be all over the place.

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 04:24 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Haschwalth
I don't think George lucas's idea was the same as those writers tbh.
There is a reason they didn't bring Darth Revan/Bane back as spirits in TCW
George didn't see that as his view of the force.

And not really was he Immortal, only Vitiate grade, he didn't pursue Plagueis's work so :/


Of course Lucas' idea wasn't the same - what's your point?

Palpatine shits all over Vitiate in the immortality department. He arguably surpassed Plagueis too.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 04:37 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
Those are still just comments by Nick Gillard and not George Lucas with no official "level system" by George Lucas existing. And until we see that somewhere, Nick Gillards incoherent interpretations don't mean anything. Especially not when contradicting words from George Lucas himself, saying that Anakin, as of RotS, can NOT compete with Sidious. End of story.


Are you ****ing retarded?

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Yes.

The tier systems were published originally on starwars.com in preparation for Episode III.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAOPveZtoE

http://web.archive.org/web/20051202.../beacon126.html

It's from here that Nick Gillard states George Lucas worked on them with him.

Thus, no, this is an official level system by George Lucas - published by Lucasfilm.

Unless you think Nick Gillard was lying in officially published material?

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: That argument sounds more fake than CNN to me.

(please log in to view the image)

If there would be a tier system for embarrassments, you'd be tier 10. thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
Anakin would have become the GOAT, if Obi-Wan hadn't ended his ascent to that position by chopping of some limbs. As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.


"Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. 'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes. 'But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.'"

No, the same book calls him the most powerful Jedi in the context of combat.

Also, this has Nick Gillard addressing how Anakin can lose despite being the greatest Jedi, which you were bitching about earlier as proof the tiers were wrong.

I'm not going to bother reading anything else since it all comes back to this, and, unsurprisingly, you're so out of your element here.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 11th, 2017 at 04:56 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 04:43 PM
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DarthAnt66
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Edited. ^


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 04:55 PM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nai
What the heck?
Anakin is absent from the list of people that George Lucas thinks can take the Emperor down at the time of RotS. Let Tempest explain it to you (in my defense, which should tell you I'm absolutely correct here):



Thanks.

@DarthAnt66:



It's also stated that Lucas did edit the RotS Novelization word by word, which didn't stop him from shitting all over it with the movie.



Yes. There is:

Those are still just comments by Nick Gillard and not George Lucas with no official "level system" by George Lucas existing. And until we see that somewhere, Nick Gillards incoherent interpretations don't mean anything. Especially not when contradicting words from George Lucas himself, saying that Anakin, as of RotS, can NOT compete with Sidious. End of story.



I've understood now, that you are a moron. Thanks.



Yes. The point is, that we don't have any "tiers" by Lucas published anywhere regarding PT characters. We only have Nick Gillard with his still incoherent references of that "level system". And it still is, pretty much, without consequence for an EU forum.



Anakin would have become the GOAT, if Obi-Wan hadn't ended his ascent to that position by chopping of some limbs. As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.



Unless they have been published, they are just some obscure reference material, that nobody needs to care about. Have they been published? No?



Oh. You're making a reference to a ten scale system, when Gillard clearly says that even level 9 doesn't exist? But then it does, and you can place people there. But not everytime they fight, because you need to explain away Anakin losing to Obi-Wan.

Yeah. Sounds like a coherent system that can serve as basis for arguments. Not. roll eyes (sarcastic)



"I'm not going to explain anything. Instead I will make an obscure reference to an obscure source making obscure references to an obscure tier system. And then, I win, right?" roll eyes (sarcastic)

And seriously: You even quoted contradictionary remarks by Nick Gillard (namely the placement of Obi-Wan in that tier system). Laughable.



What people say in some interviews is virtually of no consequence when it comes to "being canon". Unless it either printed, filmed or recorded otherwise under Lucasfilm License, it is basically completely meaningless. And given that I don't see the LFL stamp anywhere on that page, where you got the quote from (thanks for NOT providing a source, by the way), I guess, it's still a non-issue. Thank you very much.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 05:00 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Prof, you keep constantly posting gifs to Nai after I already responded to him.

You should probably do it beforehand. laughing out loud


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 05:01 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

@Nai (Continued):

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. 'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes. 'But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.'"

No, the same book calls him the most powerful Jedi in the context of combat.


Just a note: I'm not fully convinced this is from Making Episode III. The original source seems to be a published exclusive magazine leading up to Episode III, so still sanctioned nonetheless, but I felt like I should clarify. Respect threads have it labeled as Making Episode III, so it's entirely possible it's in there too. I know for sure I've seen this quote within the context of the its original posting in some setting, and I very much doubt I ever got a hold of the magazine, so I still think there's a substantial possibility it's also in Making Episode III, but I'd need someone else to confirm.

Again, not that it really matters since your issue was with the inconsistency over how Anakin could be a tier nine leaning ten and yet Obi-Wan, as a tier eight, still beat him, but it seems Nick Gillard has already noted this and addressed it. That being said, I did find in Making Episode III another reference to the tier systems (with Anakin put as a tier nine and "up with Sidious"), so there's another published source with them, ironically within the same book you tried to debunk the tiers with Lucas' Mace and Yoda quote. It's entirely possible Lucas neglected Anakin because Sidious could exploit Anakin's emotions, his combative Force powers aren't up to par with his lightsaber abilities, or a dozen other reasons that doesn't demand a direct contradiction.

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Of course, refer to my last post too.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 11th, 2017 at 05:33 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 05:20 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Frankly, Nai, you have two options here (the same I gave to Prof before he rage-quit):

- Accept Nick Gillard's statement, published on starwars.com, that George Lucas worked on them as true, making the tiers canonical.

- Argue that Nick Gillard is, for no credible reason whatsoever, lying and that George Lucas did not work on them to avoid conceding.

Frankly, you look retarded either way.

Accept it and your four pages of bitching becomes humiliating.

Deny it and you'll look like some moon-landing-was-a-hoax conspiracy nut-job.

*shrugs*

I'm entertained and will take it as a W either way.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 11th, 2017 at 05:44 PM

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 05:41 PM
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NewGuy01
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so what if he just says lucas's opinion doesn't matter either

Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 06:14 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
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Given Lucas' word is absolute in both LFL (EU) and LF (Lucas-Canon) policy, I'd have a field day.


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Old Post Oct 11th, 2017 06:19 PM
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