KMC Forums

 
  REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Already a member? Log-in!
 
 
Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda


Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda
Started by: DarthAnt66

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (7): « First ... « 4 5 [6] 7 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Quote from the website you posted:
"George Lucas works on a system of levels."

Works on != completed.


Consider the context.

quote:
A list was never published,


It was stated by Nick Gillard.

quote:
just interviews of one man living contradicting numbers.


False.


__________________

Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 12th, 2017 at 09:47 PM

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 09:45 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ziggtard
My take regarding everything posted

1 - Lucas probably did work (or agree) on a nine tier system. Making the system part of "g-canon" for it's worth now.

2 - Anakin using the dark side is on a level nine, with Yoda and Sidious.


Thank you.

quote:
3 - There is however, no evidence that Lucas ever rated Anakin above nine. This seems to be the incoherent interjection of Gillard that is both contradicted by earlier and later interviews.


Gillard has been stating Anakin is supreme as earlier back as 2005.

quote:
4 - George thinks that if Anakin and Sidious fought, Sids would get the better of him (you have to mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor) regardless of wether their power levels are the same


I put Sidious above Anakin.


__________________

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 09:46 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Prof. T.C McAbe
Kryptonian Scientist

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BatCave


 

So if you read a created or completed instead of the two words "works on" I can understand where you went off track and got everything wrong.

BTW nice edit of your post, the original can be read in my wink.


__________________

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 09:46 PM
Click here to Send Prof. T.C McAbe a Private Message Find more posts by Prof. T.C McAbe Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Prof. T.C McAbe
Kryptonian Scientist

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BatCave


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's a major distinction between that and "working."

Consider the tense it was stated in.



It was stated by Nick Gillard.

[/b]

False. [/B]


Ok, now I am lost with you. My "interpretation" of "works on" is so far off track but your "No, it says "George Lucas CREATED a list," as in it was COMPLETED" interpretation of "works on" is the ultimate truth?

Ok, wow.

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 09:48 PM
Click here to Send Prof. T.C McAbe a Private Message Find more posts by Prof. T.C McAbe Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

I wasn't trying to slide by you - I know that you quoted it. I read the post, remember? I was simply correcting myself - I briefly misremembered, but not that it matters.

Rest assured, my argument doesn't hinge on a difference between "created" and "works," since the same point is conveyed.

As of that interview, the film making is currently undergoing, as indicated by:

When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are.

At the same time, George Lucas "works" on a leveling system.

What we are reading is the same tier list presented by Nick Gillard in the Revenge of the Sith DVD and Making Episode III. Thus, we can conclude Lucas did not change the tier systems after its current state.

Therefore, the fact Lucas is currently working on it or not is irrelevant, given no significant changes were made.

Again, the argument you have for this is that Nick Gillard changed the tiers George Lucas had, but since we can see what Lucas had and it matches what Gillard had, he didn't.

The alternative that can be presented is that George Lucas edited the lists further but didn't tell Gillard, but that doesn't make sense since Lucas is making them for and with Gillard to use when working on the fights.

Yes, as I said to Nai, there are assumptions that have to be made; however, the assumptions are far more logical than the alternative you are presenting.

(Final Edit: 6:06 PM ET)


__________________

Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 12th, 2017 at 10:00 PM

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 09:53 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Prof. T.C McAbe
Kryptonian Scientist

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BatCave


 

"Yes, as I said to Nai, there are assumptions that have to be made; however, the assumptions are far more logical than the alternative you are presenting."

Finally some progress. Ok, if a tier list would exists and be canon, would there be a need for assumptions?

An example:

Let's assume this is posted as a canon tier list.
1. Yoda, Sidious
2. Anakin, Obi-Wan
3. Dooku, Mace
4. Spiderman, Hulk

Can we assume in this list something or is it obvious/clear?

If we have to assume something, then it's better to go by actuall feats instead of some vague numbers.


__________________

Last edited by Prof. T.C McAbe on Oct 12th, 2017 at 10:03 PM

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:01 PM
Click here to Send Prof. T.C McAbe a Private Message Find more posts by Prof. T.C McAbe Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
"Yes, as I said to Nai, there are assumptions that have to be made; however, the assumptions are far more logical than the alternative you are presenting."

Finally some progress. Ok, if a tier list would exists and be canon, would there be a need for assumptions?


Oh, please. You're acting like the only way something can be canonical is if a book writes a list that goes:

9: Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Mace
8: Obi-Wan, Maul, Dooku
7: Qui-Gon, Kit, Grievous.

etc. etc.

That's not true. If it is Lucas created, then it is Canon. That's actually how it works.

Any version of this debate requires some assumption to be made.

My assumption is that Nick Gillard isn't lying. That's an easy assumption to make.

Your assumption is either Lucas changed the tiers but didn't tell Gillard (defies logic), or that Gillard changed the lists (factually incorrect).

And then Nai's is a list of so many assumptions that it took me pages to address in its entirety.

So, as you can see, we can conclude that these are indeed the canonical tier lists, given it's the only logical choice.

You can call that an assumption, but perhaps I used the wrong word. It's a conclusion based on the evidence.


__________________

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:04 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Or do you think I'm assuming what the tiers itself are? I'm not. The tiers are directly stated.


__________________

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:10 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Prof. T.C McAbe
Kryptonian Scientist

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BatCave


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh, please. You're acting like the only way something can be canonical is if a book writes a list that goes:

9: Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Mace
8: Obi-Wan, Maul, Dooku
7: Qui-Gon, Kit, Grievous.

etc. etc.

That's not true. If it is Lucas created, then it is Canon. That's actually how it works.

Any version of this debate requires some assumption to be made.

My assumption is that Nick Gillard isn't lying. That's an easy assumption to make.

Your assumption is either Lucas changed the tiers but didn't tell Gillard (defies logic), or that Gillard changed the lists (factually incorrect).

And then Nai's is a list of so many assumptions that it took me pages to address in its entirety.

So, as you can see, we can conclude that these are indeed the canonical tier lists, given it's the only logical choice.

You can call that an assumption, but perhaps I used the wrong word. It's a conclusion based on the evidence.


And here we go again.

Let's agree to disagree. For you it's canon, for me it is not canon. Everythings cool that way.

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:11 PM
Click here to Send Prof. T.C McAbe a Private Message Find more posts by Prof. T.C McAbe Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ziggtard

4 - George thinks that if Anakin and Sidious fought, Sids would get the better of him (you have to mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor) regardless of wether their power levels are the same



I can imagine Anakin as of Rots having a seriously hard time going all out on Palpatine. Palpatine would definitely gain a good mental and emotional foothold over him.

That said, IF it was Lucas’s intention at the time of that quote to mean that Anakin is not even capable of fighting on or above the level of Yoda/Palpatine, I’m pretty sure he retconned that with the Morris arc.

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:14 PM
Click here to Send Darth Thor a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Thor Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

I'm not going to come to your house and force you to change your mind, but I'm going to call you out if you're running around acting like your stance is just as legitimate as mine.

It's factually incorrect to claim the tier systems are not canonical.

After all,

George Lucas' thoughts and creations = G-Canon.

The tier system = George Lucas' thoughts and creations.

The tier system = G-Canon.

How do we know the tier system represents George Lucas' thoughts and creations?

Since Nick Gillard said so.

How do we know the tier system was completed?

Since Nick Gillard is using that same tier system in 2005 at the end of filming.

How do we know George Lucas didn't change it and didn't tell Nick Gillard?

Since Nick Gillard would need to know, since the tiers are made for him.


__________________

Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 12th, 2017 at 10:17 PM

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:14 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Prof. T.C McAbe
Kryptonian Scientist

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BatCave


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Then stop barging into threads and acting like your opinion is legitimate, since it's not.

I'm not going to come to your house and force you to change your mind, but I'm going to call you out if you're running around acting like your opinion is just as legitimate as my factual stance.

It's factually incorrect to claim the tier systems are not canonical.

After all,

George Lucas' thoughts and creations = G-Canon.

The tier system = George Lucas' thoughts and creations.

The tier system = G-Canon.


See that's your opinion and I am cool with it. It's as valid as my or Nais opinion. And no worries I will call you out too and explain that your opinion is based on your assumptions.

Finally we have an good agreement.

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:19 PM
Click here to Send Prof. T.C McAbe a Private Message Find more posts by Prof. T.C McAbe Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

I edited / expanded the post.

What's an opinion? Where are my assumptions?

Literally my only assumption is that Nick Gillard is not lying.

Now considering it, can that even be called an assumption?

Seems more like an assumption to think he is, right?


__________________

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:22 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Prof. T.C McAbe
Kryptonian Scientist

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BatCave


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What's an opinion? Where are my assumptions?

Literally my only assumption is that Nick Gillard is not lying.

Now considering it, can that even be called an assumption?


The first question is not mean seriously I hope. As for the second, you said it best "assumptions to be made."

Hope that helps.

But I am off now. I understand your opinion and if you want to believe it, go ahead, I am not here to change your mind^^.

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:24 PM
Click here to Send Prof. T.C McAbe a Private Message Find more posts by Prof. T.C McAbe Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

No, please do tell me. Show me where the opinion is.

The assumption that has to be made on my behalf is that no one is lying.

That's not even an assumption, really - perhaps I misspoke when I even called it one.

On the other side, you are assuming a list of things, many of which defy all logic, to render the lists non-canonical.


__________________

Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 12th, 2017 at 10:31 PM

Old Post Oct 12th, 2017 10:29 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ziggtard
My take regarding everything posted

1 - Lucas probably did work (or agree) on a nine tier system. Making the system part of "g-canon" for it's worth now.

2 - Anakin using the dark side is on a level nine, with Yoda and Sidious.

3 - There is however, no evidence that Lucas ever rated Anakin above nine. This seems to be the incoherent interjection of Gillard that is both contradicted by earlier and later interviews.

4 - George thinks that if Anakin and Sidious fought, Sids would get the better of him (you have to mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor) regardless of wether their power levels are the same


Welcome back bro. I asked Badabing if he'd stop banning you and he said he will so long as you don't draw negative attention to yourself.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Oct 13th, 2017 02:52 AM
Click here to Send Azronger a Private Message Find more posts by Azronger Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
ziggtard
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2017
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Welcome back bro. I asked Badabing if he'd stop banning you


Thanks bro, Appreciate it.

quote:
and he said he will so long as you don't draw negative attention to yourself.


kek

Old Post Oct 13th, 2017 03:28 AM
Click here to Send ziggtard a Private Message Find more posts by ziggtard Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
YousufKhan1212
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2017
Location: Northern England.


 

Ant's embarrassing Nai, tbfh.

Old Post Oct 14th, 2017 11:55 AM
Click here to Send YousufKhan1212 a Private Message Find more posts by YousufKhan1212 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Nai
Advocatus Diaboli

Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.


 

Okay. Apparently, I must take you by the hand and go through this with you step by step, as you appear unable to follow my (as I thought not too complex) line of thoughts.

Why do we need a published "level system"

There is something you don't seem to get. I'm not questioning the general existence of the "level system" or the idea, that Lucas himself worked on it. I'm questioning the idea, that it is canon, because of the fact that it – and with that I mean a list of Jedi on different levels – has never been published.

While that may not be a problem for you, it is a problem for me. Why? Because information needs to be falsifiable in order to be considered for an argument. As it is, the "level system" is just some background material referenced by a single person: Nick Gillard. Who, in turn, is inconsistent with his remarks on the aforementioned level system. They can neither be falsified or verified, since we don't have access to the original level system, that was probably (co-)designed by George Lucas.

Then, we don't even know what the context is exactly. Does Gillard even factor in the Force or is he just concerned with the pure sword-fighting aka lightsaber skill, as that "level system" is used to base lightsaber fights on? And if he doesn't factor in the Force, would that change the ranking? So a published and contextualized "level system" would be needed as a basis for arguments.
And that would be important because:


Nick Gillard makes incoherent claims

I find it rather annoying, that you keep focusing the problem to the "Anakin vs Obi-Wan" point, while you keep glossing over anything else, namely:

a) Are there 8 or 10 levels?
While that may seem some minor point to you, I find it rather astonishing, that the guy who makes a reference to that "level system" apparently can't decide, whether Lucas designed 8 tiers or 10 tiers. If his accuracy fails on such a very basic level, then how can we trust his "memories" on more complex points?

b) The placement of Anakin
Contrary to your little painting, it is not just a question of scale. Through the various instances, in which Gillard makes a reference to the "level system", he puts Anakin once on 8 bordering 9 and then on 9 (with the "bordering 10" being added by yourself). That is the scaling part. The other part is that, when he puts him onto "9", he does put him on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious in that specific context. Not above them, but on par with. This contradiction undermines the very purpose of this thread. Because if Gillard makes contradicting statements, one would need to check the original level system to determine what is correct. Since we don’t have that, we can't do it.

The application of the "level system"

And this is where your entire "argument" falls apart. Because, apparently, the "level system" doesn’t matter at all.

Anakin's defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan is just one example. The fact that both Yoda and Mace Windu managed to defeat Sidious in rather short duels, also speaks for the fact, that the level system wasn't considered that much, even when filming the movie that it was designed for, given how all three characters are placed on the same "level", where a fight between two opponents on different levels (Anakin – Obi-Wan) takes much more time than that. That appears to be illogical.

Furthermore, as the "Homing Beacon #126" you've quoted says:
"At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make the difference." In short: In the end, there are many other factors that determine the outcome of a fight, aside from the actual ranking.

And this is especially problematic when Gillard can't decide how he wants to place Anakin at all. As a 9 with Yoda, Windu, Sidious? As an 8.5 – 9 slightly above Yoda, Windu, Sidious? And how does that place him above the trio (which was the basic thesis of your argument)?

Furthermore, I have absolutely no idea, if Gillard just thinks about their lightsaber skill or factors stuff like force mastery into the mix. Again: Given that Dooku and Obi-Wan have been placed on the same "tier", the latter doesn't seem to be the case, as Dooku is apparently easily capable of totally destroying Obi-Wan with the Force. And if Gillard didn't consider their force abilities, then how does that "level system" matter at all?

Why "out of universe" statements can't dictate canon

I find it rather hard to comprehend, what it is that certain people don't get about the idea.
When examining material that is not incorporated into the Star Wars universe itself, like statements of characters or statements about events/characters within the universe, you are always meeting the problem, that people, when making those statements, are not very likely to think about the (canon) SW universe as it is.

Gillard is a particularly good example for that. Gillard knows that there are no lightsaber styles, because he simply choreographed the fights, without designing such styles. Gillard knows that he created those choreographies following a certain level system that he designed with Lucas or Lucas designed for him. And of course, he makes statements from that position, from the point of view of a stunt coordinator that was choreographing lightsaber fights for the movie. But that is his field of vision: The movies and nothing but the movies. And that is the context you keep ignoring.

In the same way, George Lucas himself perceives "his" Star Wars universe. It's "movies only" because he doesn't bother to read anything published in the Expanded Universe. Not even following the events he does consider "canon" for his movies (e.g. Anakin getting a scar), which is pretty obvious from the RotS commentary, where he says that as far he is concerned, Anakin got that scar while slipping in the bathtub.

So more often than not, those people have a rather narrow focus, when they talk about Star Wars and it is kind of unreasonable to act as if that particular focus wasn't there. If Nick Gillard doesn't give a damn about the EU, he isn't going to incorporate lightsaber styles into his view, especially not, if he is asked about how he did the fight scenes from the movies. And if George Lucas doesn't read EU stuff, he's not going to think about it, when – for example - stating that Sidious is the most powerful Sith. Because from his view – and that is a "movie only" one – there isn't anything to argue about this because characters like Exar Kun or Revan or Vitiate don't even exist from his perspective.

Now, why can't such statements dictate "canon"? Because canon follows a completely different view. It assumes that the SW universe, as has been brought through life via canon sources is "real" and explains stuff from that perspective. So, of course, there are lightsaber styles within that universe, even though Nick Gillard designed none for the characters (so from his point of view he’s telling the "truth"). There are exotic force powers like the Shatterpoint ability, that will give Mace Windu the advantage in a confrontation. It is rather obvious for us that Sidious and Yoda are somewhat ahead of Mace Windu and Anakin in terms of force abilities and maybe lightsaber skill, even though – for Nick Gillard's purpose of designing the fight scenes – they are all on one level.

So no. I don't get why people attempt to hand in those statements, to prove their point in the context of an EU forum. It doesn't work without de-contextualizing those quotes first, which leads to an automatic misrepresentation of the speaker's original intention. If you find me a statement that says "RotS Anakin can defeat Sidious, Mace or Yoda" somewhere in the canon material, I'd love to see that. Until then, I'll stay with the – rather well supported – idea, that the RotS incarnation of Anakin would get his ass kicked if he were to confront people like Yoda or Sidious in combat.


__________________


"You are basically just a rabbit, aren't you?"

Old Post Oct 15th, 2017 10:00 PM
Click here to Send Nai a Private Message Find more posts by Nai Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Damn, Nai's shift in tone between all his previous posts and this one is juicy.

(please log in to view the image)

As in, the change from "this is how it is; you are wrong and stupid" to "well, you see, this is, uh, how I personally view it."

I know I said I likely wouldn't respond, but given Nai posted a lot of relatively new arguments that are just begging to be addressed, I feel I have no choice.

I'm currently working on my college applications at the moment though, so it might have to wait a few hours or days.


__________________

Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 15th, 2017 at 10:25 PM

Old Post Oct 15th, 2017 10:23 PM
Click here to Send DarthAnt66 a Private Message Find more posts by DarthAnt66 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 01:45 PM.
Pages (7): « First ... « 4 5 [6] 7 »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< Contact Us - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Forum powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.