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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda


Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda
Started by: DarthAnt66

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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

While I don't address everything you said with a quote, I do believe almost all your points are covered somewhere in my post.

quote:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. "Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is," says Gillard. "I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine."

Also a factor in Gillard's development is backstory of the Jedi warriors. The training lineage does show up in the crafting of duels and action. "There's a line of training through Darth Tyranus and Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can follow that line, and there's an aggressive fault in that line. Mace isn't of that line, and that allows you to give him unique talents."

For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.


- StarWars.com, Homing Beacon #126


First, the red text:

This reveals that the George Lucas' work on "a system of levels" is used by (and presumably for) Nick Gillard for the purpose of gauging the competence of combatants.

George Lucas has stated that there are two separate Star Wars universes:

quote:
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- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337


This viewpoint is recognized by Lucas Licensing, which handles the Expanded Universe:

quote:
On this site in August 2001, Steve Sansweet quoted Chris Cerasi about the canon policy. At one point, he mentions:

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."

My question is this: with the two different Star Wars continuities of Film alone and Film+EU, is the 'foggy window' of the EU materials as described above referring to a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film alone continuity, the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film+EU continuity, or does it mean something else which I'm not understanding properly?[...]


Film+EU continuity. Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity.


- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Dec. 2006 - posts from the "Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums


There's two things to take from this. One of which I already stated, the second is that the Expanded Universe is subjective (i.e. foggy mirror).

Now, here's the best part: within the context of the Expanded Universe continuity, levels were established to organize continuity within Lucas Licensing.

You're familiar with them, and also probably familiar with the quote I'm about to show you, but perhaps you need a refresher:

quote:
Understand, that the Holocron's primary purpose is to keep track of Star Wars continuity for Lucas Licensing, and to some degree Lucas Online. To my knowledge, it is only rarely used for production purposes."

Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.


- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Jan. - Dec. 2004, several StarWars.com forum posts in the "Holocron continuity database questions" thread


Man! So George Lucas' unpublished notes are the highest level of authority within the same continuity of Exar Kun's amulet blasts?

(please log in to view the image)

Which then leads us into the blue text:

Anakin Skywalker is stated to be a tier nine in George Lucas' tier system. Published or not, it doesn't matter, it's G-Canon.

So, let's outline what we have here:

Both within George Lucas' absolute continuity, and the Expanded Universe's subjective continuity, Anakin is a level nine swordsman.

That's fact. That's law. That's that.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Now, with that established, let's address some points!

quote:
a) Are there 8 or 10 levels?
While that may seem some minor point to you, I find it rather astonishing, that the guy who makes a reference to that "level system" apparently can't decide, whether Lucas designed 8 tiers or 10 tiers. If his accuracy fails on such a very basic level, then how can we trust his "memories" on more complex points?


This argument made my physically cringe when I read it. Rather than arguing for the sheer incompetence of Nick Gillard, let me propose you with the likely alternative: George Lucas never designed a set scale in the first place. It's not of George's nature to always set-in-stone something like that. Simply look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvi_qx-2j1Q&t=1m17s. This isn't Lucas being incompetent either, it's that just details aren't relevant to conveying the point. It doesn't matter to Lucas what scale is used for lightsaber combat. Frankly, what very well might have happened is Lucas simply used different scales during different meetings with Nick Gillard - perhaps even within the very same meaning. However, the main idea is still expressed. Regardless of what scale is being used, there is incredible consistency with the tiers: Anakin still ends up the same level; Obi-Wan still ends up the same level. So yeah, this is a completely minor point to me, and it should be for you too.

quote:
b) The placement of Anakin
Contrary to your little painting, it is not just a question of scale. Through the various instances, in which Gillard makes a reference to the "level system", he puts Anakin once on 8 bordering 9 and then on 9 (with the "bordering 10" being added by yourself). That is the scaling part. The other part is that, when he puts him onto "9", he does put him on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious in that specific context. Not above them, but on par with. This contradiction undermines the very purpose of this thread. Because if Gillard makes contradicting statements, one would need to check the original level system to determine what is correct.


Except why are you expecting lightsaber duelists to be static? They're not. Some lightsaber duelists can't be constrained to a simple level. Indeed, Anakin is alongside Sidious, Yoda, and Mace - he is in their tier, is he not? That does not preclude Anakin from being, in certain situations, greater than them, however. Again, consider Mace varies between an eight and a nine, yet he is also listed alongside Sidious and Yoda, who do not. There is no contradiction in this quote.

quote:
And this is where your entire "argument" falls apart. Because, apparently, the "level system" doesn't matter at all. Anakin's defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan is just one example.


This... just isn't true. We know it isn't true since we know they're created to gauge how skilled combatants are. Yes, of course it doesn't factor in context to specific situations, but it's mighty useful for forum debating, is it not? In regards to Anakin and Obi-Wan, again, refer to Sasukedc's post. Sasukedc goes through the Revenge of the Sith novelization (line-edited by George Lucas, mind you), in which it explains Anakin was significantly handicapped in his fight vs Obi-Wan due to a variety of factors that would not come into play on a neutral battlefield. So, indeed, if there is a list of factors for a fight, it might not be that important. If it's standard mindset in an empty environment, like almost all versus fights are, it's very important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQpKb0U800I&t=2m48s


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 16th, 2017 at 01:14 AM

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:05 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQpKb0U800I&t=2m48s

quote:

Originally posted by Ant

This made me physically cringe

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:13 AM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: The video was a parody diss.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:16 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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Doesn't make it any less, as you would say, "cringey"

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:41 AM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

erm


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:52 AM
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TheNuisanceBird
Wrecker - Scientist Class

Registered: Jun 2015
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>anakin is like drugs to reach enlightenment

inb4 DMB becomes new anakin brigade leader


That's become Ant's position.

He's more like forum leader though.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 02:15 PM
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UCanShootMyNova
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2016
Location:


 

He's always been. He just wasn't able to get the same backing for Revan he did for Anakin.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 03:22 PM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

I've gotten probably more support for Revan than Anakin, luz.

Difference is you can't tell since it's so deeply rooted here and elsewhere.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 04:36 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

During my stay on the forums Revan has gone lower and lower both cross-era and in his own era while Anakin has gone higher and higher both cross-era and in respect to his own era.

I find the above claim dubious.

Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 06:17 PM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

In other words, your stay here hasn't been very long.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 06:25 PM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

thumb up


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 07:31 PM
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HentaiLover
Restricted

Registered: Sep 2017
Location:

Account Restricted


 

Bullshit. Anakin couldn't even defeat Obi Wan who's a seven.

Old Post Oct 29th, 2017 08:20 PM
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Nai
Advocatus Diaboli

Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.


 

Sorry for abandoning this discussion for so long, but I was busy with other stuff.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear or there was just something you didn't get right. Let us try that again.

Lucas words G Canon or not?

I find it kind of puzzling, that you threat the idea, that Lucas spoken words are "G canon" as a fact. Because, that idea is actually quite debatable, even according to the quote your posted yourself:


"Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon." Leland Chee.


Emphasis mine. There is a little problem with that. Canon material, as defined by the Holocron database, is just stuff that is within the database, which probably doesn't include stuff that George Lucas said to Nick Gillard on the set, in order to enable his stunt coordinator to gauge the combat skill of some fictional characters. And that Lucas put that level system down in form of notes, appears to be rather questionable, provided the contradictions of Gillard. Something, that you admit yourself:

quote:

George Lucas never designed a set scale in the first place. It's not of George's nature to always set-in-stone something like that.


Of course, the irony here is, that you are, essentially, arguing based on the single idea that Lucas did set something like that in stone, namely in a level system. But that was my entire point to begin with: We have absolutely no idea, what Lucas told Gillard exactly. It could have been virtually anything, starting with "Hey. Those guys are on one level. Make that fight look interesting" to " Maybe Mace Windu is an 8.9 and Sidious is a 9.2, but in this case, Mace has the upper hand because Vaapad adds 0.2 to his skill and the Shatterpoint-ability with 0.2 give him an edge." Id doubt, that Lucas said the latter.

But here, we are essentially coming back to the term "context": Whatever Lucas said, was clearly designed to give Gillard an idea how to orchestrate these fights and for nothing else. Pulling that out of the context is very likely to generate false ideas about what Lucas wanted. Especially, when we do have the man's very own words, proclaiming that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor, while Anakin would have had a shot at him somewhere in the future. This is also rather apparent from Sidious' line to Yoda: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." He will become means that, as of "now" (in terms of the RotS movie) he is not.

Now are Lucas words G-Canon? They may be. But the way certain people handle his words as "ultima ratio" that can't be contradicted in any way, is completely absurd and also total bullshit. Just let me give you one of the more prominent examples for that: If you take that idea at face value, that Lucas words is essentially "the law" in the Star Wars universe, the official G-Canon take on how Anakin got his scar is this:


I think Anakin got it [his scar] slipping in the bathtub, but of course, he's not going to tell anybody that." Georg Lucas, "Revenge of the Sith" commentary.


Is that now the absolute G-Canon version of the story? Do I need to ask myself how reliable a "level 9 lightsaber combatant" is, if he can't even make it out of the bathtub unharmed? Or can we conclude, by taking a look a the context, that this was a joke and that the EU explanation for Anakin's scar is still the valid one?

And if you value Lucas' words so much, you may want to listen to the man talking about the limitations of his own authority. According to Lucas himself, the only authority he does have is in his universe, which is the movie universe and only there:


"[...]here's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it. George Lucas, interview at ShoWest in 2008.


Emphasis mine. But even that discussion is merely academic. It doesn't matter if the level system, that Lucas may have talked about, is G-Canon (or absolute) or not because we do not have it in Lucas own words. We just have it being referenced by Nick Gillard. The Problem with that?

Nick Gillards words aren't canon

This was the first thing that I nitpicked at, when entering this thread. To use something as the basis of an argument it has to be accessible in some manner. You may find that somewhat academic, but there is a reason why "hearsay" is usually not allowed as evidence before a judge. It can be inaccurate, might be ambiguous, can be coming from an unreliable source. Do you notice something? All arguments that can be made against "hearsay" in a courtroom do apply to Nick Gillard. He is inaccurate in his "retelling" of the level-system (which I've also pointed out and which you have tried to gloss over), which makes his word unreliable.

More importantly, though, is the fact that the very same thing you want to "prove" here is not coming from Lucas at all.:

quote:

Here's a quote from Nick Gillard in 2011. In this, he's only using a eight tier system (removed tier ten and one and then scaled down, seemingly), but the point is obvious:


"There's up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it's a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment. Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. "I've got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn't really exist," says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. "It's only a writing tool," he says, "but it gives you the edge over it just being a fight."


In the context of the ten tier scale, Anakin is nine bordering ten.


Emphasis mine. So as far as canon is concerned, Anakin is an eight the very same as Sidious, Yoda or Mace. As far as Nick Gillard is concerned, he might be above them, but that higher rating does not exist in the level system, meaning this is made up by Gillard. And guess what: His opinion doesn't matter jack shit. What does matter is the opinion of George Lucas which following the level-system, if Gillard recounts it correctly puts Anakin on one step with the others.

However: Taking George Lucas words into account, Anakin as of RotS was not capable of competing with Sidious, given you have to be Mace or Yoda to do so, according to Lucas own words. Which, in turn, would put Yoda and Mace above Anakin.

That Anakin in the future would have become more powerful than any other person appears to be a rather safe bet, given that Lucas himself directly stated that and that it is part of the RotS script (Sidious proclaiming as much when confronting Yoda).

Is that level-system important?

quote:
Yes, of course it doesn't factor in context to specific situations, but it's mighty useful for forum debating, is it not?


How could it be?
It puts pretty much all people within it on the very same level. And where it makes a difference (Obi-Wan), we have the fight going south for the one on the higher level. And, gosh, context is important.
And that "context" doesn't need to be situational, but can also be inter-personal. It's very likely that Kenobi would perform better against Anakin, against which he did thousands of hours of practice fights than against Yoda or Mace Windu (even assuming they are all on one level). Mace might be better against Dark Siders because of Vaapad kind of "negating" some of the advantages given to Dark Side practitioners, hence him being able to defeat Sidious, where he would probably fail to defeat Yoda (who is on the same level).

There is nothing that those "levels" tell us. In fact, they just give us a very simplified view of George Lucas' movie universe. Which is reasonable, if you want to give your stunt choreographer a quick hint how skilled certain people are with a lightsaber, but certainly doesn't make much sense as a basis for discussing fights between fictional characters. With most of the said characters not having been sorted into that level system. And, of course, everybody will put his favourite on level 8/9 which is quite reasonable, given how the qualifier for that apparently is "being overall better than Obi-Wan Kenobi" which, as far as force abilities are considered, applies to pretty much every halfway powerful character that is to be found in the EU.


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2017 12:52 PM
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DarthAnt66
The Returned

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Not sure if it's even legal to respond to something so long after all interest has died, rofl.

Especially when you just regurgitate everything and bring nothing new to the table whatsoever.

Get back to you on the weekend. If I forget, PM me a reminder.


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Dec 6th, 2017 at 12:56 PM

Old Post Dec 6th, 2017 12:54 PM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
Who cares Snoke is gonna be a 12. cool
rolling on floor laughing


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2017 02:47 PM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

Lucas says in the making of Ep 3. that you need to be Mace or Yoda to CONTEST with Sidious. He added that If Anakin hadn't gotten beaten up on Mustafar, he would've beaten the emperor.

Not sure if Lucas meant like straight away or in the future, but I'm more inclined to believe the former.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2017 03:04 PM
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Azronger
Head of Sheevism

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
Who cares Snoke is gonna be a 12.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
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Just wait till you see it. Sheev stomps Snoke.


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Old Post Dec 14th, 2017 07:05 PM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Can I take credit with NewGuy as the co-founder of the Anakin movement?


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cs_zoltan
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2015
Location: Hungary


 

Sure, do you also want to get your dick sucked?


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Old Post Dec 20th, 2017 05:47 AM
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The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Nah, convincing Ant of Anakin's supremacy is climactic enough. smile


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