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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda


Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda
Started by: DarthAnt66

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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

While I don't address everything you said with a quote, I do believe almost all your points are covered somewhere in my post.

quote:
How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. "Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is," says Gillard. "I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine."

Also a factor in Gillard's development is backstory of the Jedi warriors. The training lineage does show up in the crafting of duels and action. "There's a line of training through Darth Tyranus and Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can follow that line, and there's an aggressive fault in that line. Mace isn't of that line, and that allows you to give him unique talents."

For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.


- StarWars.com, Homing Beacon #126


First, the red text:

This reveals that the George Lucas' work on "a system of levels" is used by (and presumably for) Nick Gillard for the purpose of gauging the competence of combatants.

George Lucas has stated that there are two separate Star Wars universes:

quote:
(please log in to view the image)

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337


This viewpoint is recognized by Lucas Licensing, which handles the Expanded Universe:

quote:
On this site in August 2001, Steve Sansweet quoted Chris Cerasi about the canon policy. At one point, he mentions:

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."

My question is this: with the two different Star Wars continuities of Film alone and Film+EU, is the 'foggy window' of the EU materials as described above referring to a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film alone continuity, the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film+EU continuity, or does it mean something else which I'm not understanding properly?[...]


Film+EU continuity. Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity.


- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Dec. 2006 - posts from the "Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums


There's two things to take from this. One of which I already stated, the second is that the Expanded Universe is subjective (i.e. foggy mirror).

Now, here's the best part: within the context of the Expanded Universe continuity, levels were established to organize continuity within Lucas Licensing.

You're familiar with them, and also probably familiar with the quote I'm about to show you, but perhaps you need a refresher:

quote:
Understand, that the Holocron's primary purpose is to keep track of Star Wars continuity for Lucas Licensing, and to some degree Lucas Online. To my knowledge, it is only rarely used for production purposes."

Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.


- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Jan. - Dec. 2004, several StarWars.com forum posts in the "Holocron continuity database questions" thread


Man! So George Lucas' unpublished notes are the highest level of authority within the same continuity of Exar Kun's amulet blasts?

(please log in to view the image)

Which then leads us into the blue text:

Anakin Skywalker is stated to be a tier nine in George Lucas' tier system. Published or not, it doesn't matter, it's G-Canon.

So, let's outline what we have here:

Both within George Lucas' absolute continuity, and the Expanded Universe's subjective continuity, Anakin is a level nine swordsman.

That's fact. That's law. That's that.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Now, with that established, let's address some points!

quote:
a) Are there 8 or 10 levels?
While that may seem some minor point to you, I find it rather astonishing, that the guy who makes a reference to that "level system" apparently can't decide, whether Lucas designed 8 tiers or 10 tiers. If his accuracy fails on such a very basic level, then how can we trust his "memories" on more complex points?


This argument made my physically cringe when I read it. Rather than arguing for the sheer incompetence of Nick Gillard, let me propose you with the likely alternative: George Lucas never designed a set scale in the first place. It's not of George's nature to always set-in-stone something like that. Simply look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvi_qx-2j1Q&t=1m17s. This isn't Lucas being incompetent either, it's that just details aren't relevant to conveying the point. It doesn't matter to Lucas what scale is used for lightsaber combat. Frankly, what very well might have happened is Lucas simply used different scales during different meetings with Nick Gillard - perhaps even within the very same meaning. However, the main idea is still expressed. Regardless of what scale is being used, there is incredible consistency with the tiers: Anakin still ends up the same level; Obi-Wan still ends up the same level. So yeah, this is a completely minor point to me, and it should be for you too.

quote:
b) The placement of Anakin
Contrary to your little painting, it is not just a question of scale. Through the various instances, in which Gillard makes a reference to the "level system", he puts Anakin once on 8 bordering 9 and then on 9 (with the "bordering 10" being added by yourself). That is the scaling part. The other part is that, when he puts him onto "9", he does put him on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious in that specific context. Not above them, but on par with. This contradiction undermines the very purpose of this thread. Because if Gillard makes contradicting statements, one would need to check the original level system to determine what is correct.


Except why are you expecting lightsaber duelists to be static? They're not. Some lightsaber duelists can't be constrained to a simple level. Indeed, Anakin is alongside Sidious, Yoda, and Mace - he is in their tier, is he not? That does not preclude Anakin from being, in certain situations, greater than them, however. Again, consider Mace varies between an eight and a nine, yet he is also listed alongside Sidious and Yoda, who do not. There is no contradiction in this quote.

quote:
And this is where your entire "argument" falls apart. Because, apparently, the "level system" doesn't matter at all. Anakin's defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan is just one example.


This... just isn't true. We know it isn't true since we know they're created to gauge how skilled combatants are. Yes, of course it doesn't factor in context to specific situations, but it's mighty useful for forum debating, is it not? In regards to Anakin and Obi-Wan, again, refer to Sasukedc's post. Sasukedc goes through the Revenge of the Sith novelization (line-edited by George Lucas, mind you), in which it explains Anakin was significantly handicapped in his fight vs Obi-Wan due to a variety of factors that would not come into play on a neutral battlefield. So, indeed, if there is a list of factors for a fight, it might not be that important. If it's standard mindset in an empty environment, like almost all versus fights are, it's very important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQpKb0U800I&t=2m48s


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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Oct 16th, 2017 at 01:14 AM

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:05 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQpKb0U800I&t=2m48s

quote:

Originally posted by Ant

This made me physically cringe

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:13 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: The video was a parody diss.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:16 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

Doesn't make it any less, as you would say, "cringey"

Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:41 AM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

erm


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2017 01:52 AM
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TheNuisanceBird
Wrecker - Scientist Class

Registered: Jun 2015
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>anakin is like drugs to reach enlightenment

inb4 DMB becomes new anakin brigade leader


That's become Ant's position.

He's more like forum leader though.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 02:15 PM
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UCanShootMyNova
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2016
Location:


 

He's always been. He just wasn't able to get the same backing for Revan he did for Anakin.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 03:22 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

I've gotten probably more support for Revan than Anakin, luz.

Difference is you can't tell since it's so deeply rooted here and elsewhere.


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 04:36 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
Location:


 

During my stay on the forums Revan has gone lower and lower both cross-era and in his own era while Anakin has gone higher and higher both cross-era and in respect to his own era.

I find the above claim dubious.

Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 06:17 PM
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NewGuy01
perpetual

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA


 

In other words, your stay here hasn't been very long.

Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 06:25 PM
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DarthAnt66
Last of the Jedi

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

thumb up


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Old Post Oct 28th, 2017 07:31 PM
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HentaiLover
Junior Member

Registered: Sep 2017
Location:


 

Bullshit. Anakin couldn't even defeat Obi Wan who's a seven.

Old Post Oct 29th, 2017 08:20 PM
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