He said there are 3 men that MIGHT have a chance meaning he doesn't even think they were on his level. Just close enough that they might sneak in a win. Now it could be the Cleganes, or just one, or neither. Out of the two I think he would be more concerned with Gregor. Selmy is surely one. Red Viper might be one. Loras might be another.
You're making an assumption here but there are a few options here
Jaime has a high opinion of himself, he's not always right. He thought he would walk all over a holding-back Brienne, but she beat his ass instead. Yes, he was far from his peak form, but Brienne was holding back severely, while he was going for the kill, Jaime even commented on it. Show Jamie lacks the feats to be among the GOAT fighters of GoT, sadly.
Considering Sandor easily matched Gregor in a fight I think Jaime would put him up there. Selmy is definitely there, Jaime was in awe of him. He definitely didn't put Oberyn in that number, because he had no idea how good he was, he mentioned to Tyrion he had never seen him fight. Loras is not on that level and Jamie knows it. Brienne beat his ass. He's good but not elite.
There's really no one else in the show. Ned was dead, Dayne was dead, Khal Drogo was dead, the Viper was an unknown, and the other elite warriors from the books are absent in the show. That just leaves the Clegane brothers and Selmy.
That's assuming that we know every elite fighter in the show too. The others could be someone we've never met or someone old like Selmy who's retired. Fact is, the fighters were never named so we cant just randomly attribute the thought to the Cleganes. Especially since the quote was so obviously pulled from the books where it didn't reference the Cleganes either. It was a throw away line in the show with no real thought put into it.
Also, Brienne beat a Jaime who was shackled, atrophied, and malnourished from being physically bounded and caged for nearly a year. Not only that, but Brienne was clearly struggling at the beginning of the fight. Jaime could see every flaw in her fighting style and had her on the defensive. You could even see he was playing with her as he chided her every misstep. It wasn't until the malnourishment took its toll and he started to get exhausted that she was a clear winner and started holding back. Jaime in his prime would have beaten her without too much trouble.
It's like when she beat the Hound. They guy was already sick, suffering from a neck infection, and fatigued (Arya even mentions that he moves a lot slower because of his sickness), not to mention the fact that she was wielding a valyrian steel sword. The only fair and true win Brienne has so far is against Loras. Otherwise, her fights are won due to having some pretty staggering advantages.
If they haven't appeared on the show they don't exist. The show and books are two different animals at this point. And when was Selmy retired? He was a Kingsguard and then fought for Dany. He did an awful job, too. Age must have taken a serious toll on him.
Yeah, yeah, I know. Brienne's big feats are all very circumstantial. Prime Sandor and prime Jaime would have beat her. My point was that Jaime overestimates himself.
My bad, that was weirdly stated. I'm not saying Selmy himself is retired, I'm saying the others could be older swordsmen like him who happen to be retired.
And in a show like this that has such an extensive history and lore that regularly introduces new but long existing characters, saying they don't exist because they haven't been seen yet isn't true. The show and book at least share the same history (you can find featurettes in the the bluray box sets that give background on people and events we've never even seen). Did Viper exist before season 4? Did Euron exist before season 6? Some of the greatest warriors in the realm are only known through small referencing lines in the book too.
Well, that's the thing with retired old fighters, they're not nearly as good as they used to be. Again, old Barristan is the example, he got killed by some scrubs, which someone like Sandor would have cleaved through.
Okay, I get where you're coming from but you have to realize the books and the show have dramatic differences. There are simply too many changes. If a character from the books hasn't appeared or been referenced then we can't just assume they exist in the show.
Now that I've typed that out I realize all that is completely irrelevant to the debate of Ned vs. the Hound so I'll say this. Sandor has better stats and far better combat feats so he wins this.
Yes Jaime thinks his shit don't stink but his estimation of himself is not far off. He was WIDELY regarded as one of the very best swordsmen in Westeros period. If he was regarded as such then there has to be some legitimacy to it. And we all know his loss to Brienne has a huge asterisk next to it. It was more fleshed out in the book but basically Jaime tried to end the fight by overpowering her from the start and underestimated her skill. In doing so he wore himself out due to him being malnourished as restrained.
You're right in saying Jaime never saw Martell fight but he has heard of him and his skill. That might have been enough for Jaime to consider him a potential contender. As for Loras, he was beaten by Brienne after fighting all day long in a massive battle royal. Loras was far from fresh and fell victim to almost the same situation as Jaime. Brienne has been fighting guys her whole life and they all do the same thing, they try to end it quickly by overpowering her. They tend to underestimate her because she's a woman and they don't want to be embarrassed by looking like they took a long time to defeat her. So they forgo their usual caution and patience and just try to hack her down. She's very experienced in defending against that and she wears her opponents out before going on the offensive. Now two things to know here : 1. Jaime doesn't know Loras lost to Brienne and 2. Loras, even having lost to her, is still considered the more elite fighter in the Reach bar none. Jaime could give the nod of "MIGHT" to Loras as he was not outright saying any of the three were better than him. Just that they might be able to maybe win. Possibly.
Another possible candidate is Thoros of Myr. He hasn't shown much in the show but many people reference his outstanding performance at the Siege of Pyke. He was the first through the breach and wields a "ridiculous" flaming sword. Maybe Jaime was so impressed by Thoros' skill that he saw firsthand that he gave him that "might" status. And maybe his skill alone wouldn't be enough but when accompanied by that fire stick he might be able to edge Jaime once in maybe 25 fights. The problem here is that this requires speculation on both sides for and against the Cleganes. Since we can't know for certain who Jaime is referring to it's best not to assume.
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Last edited by juggerman on Oct 8th, 2017 at 05:31 AM
He is regarded as one of the greatest, but so was Selmy and he got merked by some nobodies. I'll take feats over accoladess.
Rewatch the scene where Jaime and Tyrion talk about him. Jaime thought Oberyn couldn't beat the Mountain. Show Loras is basically featless and I don't even remember Jaime talking about him so I don't think so. At any rate I highly doubt Jaime thinks Loras is above the Clegane brothers and I think everyone here would agree that either of them would push his shit in, though I guess he'd like that.
Nah, Thoros is known of his crazy bravery, not his skill. He wasn't even the best brotherhood fighter, much less the a GOAT in GoT.
Yes and what these characters believe is what is in question here. What we see and believe about these character do not affect what they see and believe about each other. Selmy was consider one of the greatest duelist around. How he was killed later on has no baring on what Jamie thought of him.
We are talking about what Jaime thinks not what he said. You seem to think he considers the Cleganes as near his level but he never once said that. Again Loras is considered the best swordsman the Reach while the Cleganes are not considered the best fighters anywhere. Sure Jaime knows Loras is a fanny bandit but I doubt Jaime would decide sexual proclivity exempts anyone from being a great fighter given his activities.
Again we have no idea what Jaime thinks of Thoros but we do know he saw him fight at Pyke and we do know Thoros is held in high regard because of it. To any extent we can't assume Jaime was referring to either Clegane when he made that statement as it was left intentionally ambiguous and there are several candidates. Jaime wouldn't just consider people we've seen he would consider every fighter he's ever seen or heard about in the entirety of Westeros that's still alive.
Fair enough, I already said Selmy would be one of the top 3.
He definitely thinks the Mountain is dangerous, we know that much. And I'm pretty sure he was there when Sandor stalemated him. Loras may be considered the best swordsman in the Reach, but I think Jaime forms his own opinions. I doubt he'd put Loras in the top 3 unless he saw him in action.
Then forget the statement. We know for a fact that Sandor blows Ned out of the water by feats, which is what this thread is about.
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Oct 6th, 2017 10:12 PM
