Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Ziggy, most of your points are inconsequential to my overall argument here, so I won't waste my time discussing the intricasies of human biology or the minutiae of channelling the Force through inorganic matter - I already spent too much time researching those topics, and concluded that I'd have to do far more if I wished to attain a complete picture, which may very well have resulted in me being wrong and you being right, making all the precious time spent useless.
Even if I happened to be correct, the resulting victory would only have been a superfluous bonus, a cherry on top of the cake; Palpatine slaying thousands of Force wielders by himself would have been inappurtenant to his position at the apex of the pecking order of the Sith Lords, as it is more than anything a feat of stamina - you can only fight so many at a time; you'll just be repeating the same feat of facing a handful at a time over and over again - meaning it cannot be translated to reflect his capabilities as a single combatant. In other words, a feat like that is unquantifiable, and by proxy, unsupportive of Sheev's preeminence among the Lords of the Sith.
As such, I will drop the point for now. Consider that a concession if you will; doesn't matter to me. I rest my case for the time being, but not before leaving you with the facts: the guardian spirits are able to use the Force in a limited capacity. They are unable to affect the living enough to harm them, but are capable of dominating the minds of the Hssiss, a breed of dark side beasts:
"Hssiss are semi-intelligent beasts, corrupted and strengthed by prolonged exposure to the dark side. As creatures of the Force, they have a limited ability to mask theor presence. Hssiss are drawn to suffering and carnage. They must have fed on all the corpses left over from the war here on Korriban. The angry phantoms of the Sith, too weak to influence the sentient, have taken these Hssiss as thralls to their will."
--Kreia
Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Their possession of the skeletons of deceased pirates and other plunderers is also not really "possession" in the descriptive sense of the word: the carcasses have no consciousness, no sentient mind to take control of. They are entirely lifeless shells, no different from rocks or other clutter. Thus, I believe their "possession" is in fact telekinetic rather than telepathic in nature. Obviously this would mean they are able to use telekinesis then, although to a very limited degree. The point being though, that they are not the equivalent of non-Force sensitives. Especially when they can hop onto another body if their current one is destroyed:
They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again.
The Dark Side Sourcebook
So Sheev would not be fighting an army of thousands; he would be fighting a never-ending legion the dead who keep coming back over and over, that can't be defeated through convential methods:
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Now we get to the meat of my argument. Yes, we do have a reason to suspect Sidious was not able to bring his full might to bear. For almost his entire reign as Emperor of the galaxy, he was multitasking with the Force, ceaselessly performing galactonic, amaranthine grand manipulations over the entire galaxy. Most notably, Emperor Palpatine is explained as holding unwavering dominance over the entire Imperial military:
C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"
"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."
Heir to the Empire
Note how every soldier, no matter their rank, is affected by the Emperor's death:
Thrawn smiled back. "It is indeed. Tell me, Master C'baoth: are you familiar with the Imperial Fleet's disastrous defeat at the Battle of Endor five years ago?"
"I've heard rumors. One of the offworlders who came here spoke about it." C'baoth's gaze drifted to the window, to the palace/crypt visible across the square. "Though only briefly."
Pellaeon swallowed. Thrawn himself didn't seem to notice the implication. "Then you must have wondered how a few dozen Rebel ships could possibly rout an Imperial force that outgunned it by at least ten to one."
"I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."
"In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."
He turned to look at Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain—you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short, of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."
"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He was starting to see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."
One blue-black eyebrow went up, just slightly. "Really? The loss of the Executor—the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself—the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have had trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?"
"The Emperor was not directing the battle," Pellaeon snapped with a fire that startled him. "Not in any way. I was there, Admiral—I know."
"Yes, Captain, you were there," Thrawn said, his voice abruptly hard. "And it's time you gave up your blindfold and faced the truth, no matter how bitter you find it. You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial Fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg - implanted into a combat Computer."
Heir to the Empire
For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel Cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear.
Return of the Jedi novelization
With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
The above statement is also interesting, because Leia, Han and co. were on the Endor moon at the time, yet it is noted that the sudden loss of coordination helped them disable the shield generator, meaning the Emperor was also controlling the ground troops, hence my earlier comment about the entire Imperial military. Note how it is also stated numerous times it is Palpatine's dark side power that holds the Empire - not just the fleet, but the entire Empire, further backing up my claim about the whole military - together. Not his political power.
The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.
Return of the Jedi novelization
With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear.
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.
Dark Empire Sourcebook
The Imperial military numbered in the tens of trillions, by the way:
The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular Army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew and a vast force of Stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned.
Rebellion Era Campaign Guide
He did this passively presumably ever since the Empire's inception (note how the DE sourcebook quote states he had designed the Empire to be reliant on his power, and in Darth Plagueis it is revealed Sheev had ambitions to be Emperor as early as TPM, so the implications of TPM/RotS Sidious being a casual galactic telepath are quote strong. That's off-topic, but quite an interesting prospect to throw around for those who consider Valkorion above those either of those respective iterations of Sheev) all the way until its defeat at Endor. Meaning he'd also be dominating the minds of tens of trillions of soldiers all over the galaxy while fighting those Sith spirits. As such, he's be diverting the majority of his power into that, and not the spirits. His loss cannot be used as an indicator of his maximum potency in combat should he choose to stop focusing on the Imperial military and unleash all his power on his enemies.
Palpatine's loss is unquantifiable, and I don't concede anything about his army-busting capabilities. Suck it, Vitidiots.
I like Azronger's lack of understanding the context of the following sources he had mentioned in his 'argument'.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
1. Palpatine's Byss drain only took place in the vicinity of the planet
2. The Life-Drain did not benefit him with a Force boost. He merely harnessed that lifeforce to prevent the deterioration of his weakened body. Which, evidently, proved to be a failure in long term goals.
3. Palpatine wasn't the one behind the Battle Meditation. It was one of his Admirals - Declann. Only Thrawn assumed it had to be Palpatine.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on May 2nd, 2018 at 12:52 PM
It was described in Heir to the Empire, when Grand Admiral Thrawn explains his own belief regarding the Endor Battle. He thought that Palpatine used that power to such a bad level, taking such close control of the Imperial forces as to make them puppets, almost incapable of fighting on their own when his influence was suddenly removed (the use of battle meditation at Endor was later revealed and attributed to Grand Admiral Nial Declann instead of Palpatine)
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Declann was involved with the Battle Meditation on Endor according to Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals, but the Emperor obviously takes a large chunk of the credit as well.
I've always felt Declann's entry in 'Who's Who' was rather vague/ambiguous in that respect: https://i.imgur.com/L7BbffF.jpg
Given his rank as a Grand Admiral, 'coordinating the Imperial fleet' could mean any number of things, tbh. /shrug
Either way, the RotJ novelization(a higher form of canon than an Insider article) makes it clear that Palpatine's mere presence was absolutely detrimental to the Empire's cohesion. Once he was killed, the fleet swiftly fell apart:
...Which makes Thrawn's assertion in Heir to the Empire quite valid, tbh:
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
To be honest - this doesn't allude to Palpatine making use of Battle meditation. It simply means that with Palpatine's death - his empire fell too. It was Palpatine who kept the Empire whole. It makes sense. And rightfully so.
Think about it. You are at war and your leader suddenly dies in a massive explosion. Of course that you don't know what to do anymore. You are confused and awed.
After all: Palpatine's attention during that time was focused on Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader.
Isn't he a Dark Side Adept?
Didn't Declann's impressive, Force-enhanced skills as a TIE pilot brought him to the attention of Emperor Palpatine's agents?
IIRC, he was taken to Dromund Kaas - where he was educated in the ways of the dark side by the Prophets of the Dark Side.
This fits with the flow of the story, better, in my opinion.
It was his job to make sure they win - not Palpatine's job. As aforementioned - Palpatine's focus was 'focused' somewhere else.
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Last edited by Freedon Nadd on May 2nd, 2018 at 10:25 PM
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Nov 2nd, 2017 05:03 PM
