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Sutherland Springs, TX shooting
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
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background checks, we need better background checks

Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:26 AM
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dadudemon
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Bacta Tank.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Firefly218
Oh my god, you're ducking like an absolute coward.


You cannot even remain slightly civil before you piss yourself with emotional outbursts. You're not capable of having an adult discussion which is why I do not indulge you and usually ignore you. erm

Please stop getting so emotional? Pretty please? Just keep it civil, dude. Don't make us like the others.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Firefly218
The topic of discussion in this thread is MASS SHOOTINGS. Not crime rates, not murder rates. It's MASS SHOOTINGS.


No, the topic of the thread is the Sutherland Texas Shooting. The topic you replied to and I replied to is more gun control. I said the gun control was in place: he did not legally possess that firearm.

So your response was to throw a red herring out there that is irrelevant. Then you pretended like it was the greatest argument ever made.

And now you're pretending like stopping less than .01% of violence in the US is a magical solution to the violence in the US.

And when I directed your attention to that, you got mad and now want to make this "ONLY ABOUT MASS SHOOTINGS AND THAT'S IT. NOTHING ELSE. JUST MASS SHOOTINGS."

Okay, great. You care about mass shootings, only. But gun control laws clearly do not stop mass shootings in the US. You cannot use Australia because Australia is not an apples to apples comparison.

I've directed your attention to Russia which has much stricter gun control laws and far fewer guns in circulation than the US and yet has far far more homicides.

http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...as-more-murders

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Firefly218
The Australia example applies to MASS SHOOTINGS. There have been ZERO mass shootings in Australia since the 1996 gun legislation. Meanwhile in America we've had more mass shootings than we can count.

If you're not gonna be intellectually honest there's no point continuing this discussion.


I don't want to be anything with you. You're unreasonable, get too emotional, and are very illogical.

I couldn't care less about your bad point regarding Australia. It's never a topic I addressed or wanted to talk about until I chose to indulge a post ago.

You "DEMANDED, BY GAWD!!!!!!!" someone address your bad point. Your very bad idea about doing an illogical comparison with Australia. You need to be intellectually honest with yourself: you're dead set on your Australia thing being the end all be all. You're not open for debate. You're not open to the idea that your example is a poor comparison to the US and can never work in the US. You're not looking for someone to provide a rebuttal (I did, but it made you very upset that I listed other countries with lots of gun ownership but far far less violent crime).

If you're not happy about that, then go to any of the other countries that researcher listed. How often do mas shootings occur there?

So let's directly guns and violence in Australia since 1996:

Murders went up in 1999, in Australia, which was after your high prized gun laws went into place.

Additionally, several mass murders took place in Australia since 1996.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...es_in_Australia

And if you want to use Australia's numbers for homicide, then we can compare apples to oranges:

US Gun Homicides dropped more from 1993 to 2013 than Australia's murders did from 1996 until 2014:

USA: dropped 43%
Australia: dropped 23%

Again, that's an apples to oranges comparison. Actual homicide rates in the US dropped by more than half since 1980. That's an apples to apples to comparison. Murders peaked in the US in the early 1990s so whatever we did in the US is better than Australia who saw a 23% drop in homicides sense then, right? By your logic, we're doing better than Australia, right? Since I am actually being intellectually honestly, I'll tell you the answer: it is not an apples to apples comparison so I cannot pretend like the US' policy on how to address violence is better than Australia's, despite the data being able to support that idea.


Works Cited:

https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime...tates-1980-2014

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013...public-unaware/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...es_in_Australia

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gu...tralia-updated/


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:29 AM
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dadudemon
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Bacta Tank.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
background checks, we need better background checks


In some states, this is not done. Why? I have no idea.

http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-l...kground-checks/


The Universal Background Check idea is what I'm referring to.

quote:
Gun offenders overwhelmingly obtain their guns through private sales. A survey of state prison inmates in 13 states who were convicted of gun offenses found that only 13% obtained the gun from a gun store or pawnshop where background checks are required.11 Nearly all (96%) of those inmates who were already prohibited from possessing a gun at the time of their crime obtained the firearm through an unlicensed private seller.12

When background checks are required, they are extremely effective at keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous, prohibited persons. Since the federal background check requirement was adopted in 1994, over 3 million people legally prohibited from possessing a gun—mainly convicted felons, domestic abusers, and the dangerously mentally ill—have been denied a firearm transfer or permit.13 In 2014 alone, 147,000 prohibited people were blocked from acquiring guns by NICS, the federal background check system.14





How do we enforce gun control laws on private sales? You can't. Jaden was coming close to it with technology but people will always and easily get around technological barriers, even if you institute 'buy back' programs to de-circulate guns.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:32 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Firefly218
And by the way, dadudemon.

It's perfectly reasonable to see why banning rapid firing guns doesn't significantly decrease violent crime rates. Most murders/crimes don't involve high-powered weaponry.

The reason we need to ban rapid firing guns is NOT because it would decrease the violent crime rates, it's because it would decrease instances of mass slaughter.

Anyways, if any of that got through...


But even mass shootings in the US, the vast majority are not done with automatic or automatic-like firearms. Less than 10% are.

But we do agree on one thing: banning those types of guns doesn't significantly decrease violent crime rates. Or at all: it could increase it if you use Glasgow as an example when they hit a peak on violent crime and murder rates in 2005 for the Western World (bordering on rates similar to war-torn African countries). But I won't pretend that it was due to the loss of firearms: just making a point about statistical significance and improper correlations.


As I've cited, better, not more, but better gun control laws mixed with:
better and universal healthcare
reducing our poverty rates
increasing our education rates


Will actually have a meaningful and significant reduction on violence in the US. That includes the item you are laser focused on: mass shootings.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:38 AM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
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Certainly more helpful than whatever the **** you're doing in this thread tbh

Unless you actively gave to or participated in some charity that's helping in the aftermath of this tragedy, you're not being any more of use. I'm not exactly doing less than anyone else in this thread to help with the situation tbh, unless there's some charity shit I don't know of.

Could it be that you have some special contempt for and gripe with religion that you seized on this thread as an excuse to attack people for expressing empathy for the victims, or is this your way of morally grandstanding and suggesting anyone who disagrees with you on gun control policy is just uncaring towards the victims of these tragedies?


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Last edited by Emperordmb on Nov 6th, 2017 at 04:47 AM

Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:42 AM
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Dreampanther
We all face the reaper.

Gender: Male
Location: South Africa, under the bed.

No. More Americans killing each other with guns? This was completely unpredictable and totally unexpected. If only there had been some kind of warning.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:44 AM
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Adam_PoE
Prince of Eternia

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dreampanther
No. More Americans killing each other with guns? This was completely unpredictable and totally unexpected. If only there had been some kind of warning.


Shh . . . now's not the appropriate time to talk about that. Now's the time for thoughts and prayers.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:49 AM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

Gender: Male
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Again, no less useful than you bitching about people expressing basic empathy for other people.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:55 AM
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Dreampanther
We all face the reaper.

Gender: Male
Location: South Africa, under the bed.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Shh . . . now's not the appropriate time to talk about that. Now's the time for thoughts and prayers.


Pray as much as you like. Pretty sure that's what all those people in the church were doing as well just before they got shot.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 04:56 AM
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Firefly218
Browncoat

Gender: Male
Location: Austin

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"we need mental health" is not an appropiate answer to firearm regulation because regulating firearms does not hinder better treatment of mental health.

Furthermore, overall violence stats aren't relevant here, gun related violence is. The only question that needs to be answered here is if un regulations may reduce gun violence. If so, then they're worth trying.

Finally there are no rights being threatened here. The only right there ever has been is the right to well regulated use of firearms.
thumb up

Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 05:53 AM
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marwash22
HELL YEAH.

Gender: Male
Location: Balls deep in your cerebral cortex

yeah yeah, thoughts and prayers (lol) and all that good stuff... i need y'all to have the same energy you have when a muslim does this shit.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Please remember that this was just a lone wolf one-off incident

Whites are a race of peace
#BuildThatWall... around white men with guns.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 06:32 AM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 07:22 AM
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jaden101
It's Fat Albert

Gender: Male
Location: North Philadelphia

I see the same old cyclical arguments being used on both sides of the gun control debate here.

Neither side listens to the other. It's as polarised and entrenched as everything else in US politics.

Zero changes will be made unless there's money to be made.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 09:58 AM
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cdtm
@#$%

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Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
I see the same old cyclical arguments being used on both sides of the gun control debate here.

Neither side listens to the other. It's as polarised and entrenched as everything else in US politics.

Zero changes will be made unless there's money to be made.


Pretty much.

You just need to look at, say, airport security to see where their priorities are. Too cheap to invest in a proper security system, but willing to spend just enough on poorly trained, underpaid help to create the illusion of security to people keep buying those overpriced plane tickets and food concessions..


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 02:21 PM
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Bashar Teg
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
Now is not the time to discuss our gun laws, we have to wait until people are not "emotional" over this shooting and that will take us right into the next shooting and we wash/repeat.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 02:24 PM
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dadudemon
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Gender: Male
Location: Bacta Tank.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"we need mental health" is not an appropiate answer to firearm regulation because regulating firearms does not hinder better treatment of mental health.


When you phrase it with a non-sequitur logical structure like that, of course it doesn't make sense. Anyone can form ridiculous structures like that and then pretend to defeat stupid arguments.

Mental healthcare will never be the answer to firearm regulation because they aren't the same thing. As Firefly pointed out, why not both? What you mean to say is that violence can be reduced by better gun regulation and better mental healthcare in the US.

As I pointed out, the stupid gun regulations in some states needs to go away. And the sparse or even lacking gun regulations need to be shored up in other states. That's in addition to all those other things I mentioned.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Furthermore, overall violence stats aren't relevant here, gun related violence is. The only question that needs to be answered here is if un regulations may reduce gun violence. If so, then they're worth trying.

Finally there are no rights being threatened here. The only right there ever has been is the right to well regulated use of firearms.


Wrong: violence needs to be addressed, not specifically gun violence. If other countries can do it, we can do it. You're make the mistake of a false dichotomy. It's not this or that. You don't have to make a choice between mutually exclusive poles. You can choose both at the same time. We agree that better gun regulation needs to be in place. I did not say more: I said better.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 03:18 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
I see the same old cyclical arguments being used on both sides of the gun control debate here.

Neither side listens to the other. It's as polarised and entrenched as everything else in US politics.

Zero changes will be made unless there's money to be made.


I don't see that at all in this thread. I see US Leftists using old, tired, and even ill-informed ideas on how to solve violence in the US and me, the most liberal person in this thread, knocking down the stupid ideas and using legit data to help steer people towards the proper solutions.


Has anyone in this thread represented the "other side" at all in this thread?


Or were you talking about US Americans and not this thread?


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 03:21 PM
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cdtm
@#$%

Gender: Unspecified
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I wonder if mental health services ever helped anyone?

I've spent most of my young life in the system. For "tourettes", back when it was barely understood. Sat in individual sessions. Sat in groups. Was given meds.

All I remember about that time is just wishing to get it over with. I wouldn't say it 'helped" in any way talking to these guys, who all seemed pretty aloof and unapproachable..


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 03:26 PM
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Bashar Teg
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we have to somehow magically cure 100% of all mental illness, because it makes too much sense to just not allow the mentally ill to own guns.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 03:30 PM
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Lestov16
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3 terrorist attacks in the span of slightly over a month. Interestingly, the least deadly attack, and the only attack not performed by a Caucasian male, was also the only attack that received both consolatory and legislative response from the president.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2017 03:47 PM
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