KillerMovies - Movies That Matter!

REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Home » Community » General Discussion Forum » Systematic Issues

Systematic Issues
Started by: Rockydonovang

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (8): « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
Surtur
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: Chicago

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Honestly I feel like I would rather up the standard for who can vote and have some sort of aptitude test. And I'd like that test to be at least hard enough that I wouldn't be able to pass it.


There is a lot of pointless voting going on as well. Off the top of your head...can you name any judges where you live? I can't, and I'd say that is the same for most people.

They give you pages and pages of names of judges to vote "yes" or "no" on. I would think some 98% of people have never heard of the judges and have no idea what kind of rulings they have made.


__________________
But we all got a Chicken-Duck-Woman thing waiting for us.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2017 11:33 PM
Surtur is currently offline Click here to Send Surtur a Private Message Find more posts by Surtur Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
I don't see it is as wrong to require an ID to vote. An ID is required to do lots of things in this country.

I support making it easier for people to obtain proper identification.

This isn't an issue about what's "morally wrong". This is simply an issue on whether the policy does more good than harm.

Voter ID laws reduce voter turnout by thousands. There's only been 31 cases of voter fraud in 16 years.

It's doing a lot more harm than good and hence is an ineffective and bad policy.

Again, states that don't use this policy still have ways of checking voters. It's just these methods significantly increase turnout and there's no evidence it's resulting in any degree of significantly greater voter fraud.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:36 PM

Old Post Nov 8th, 2017 11:34 PM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

That is assuming that reducing voter turnout is inherently negative. If you can't even manage to get an ID then maybe you don't have your shit together enough for America to value your political insight tbh.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2017 11:40 PM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Again, states that don't use this policy still have ways of checking voters. It's just these methods significantly increase turnout and there's no evidence it's resulting in any degree of significantly greater voter fraud.
Wait... what other ways do they use to check voters... alternative forms of identification? I thought we were discussing whether proof of identity should be required at all.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2017 11:42 PM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
There is a lot of pointless voting going on as well. Off the top of your head...can you name any judges where you live? I can't, and I'd say that is the same for most people.

They give you pages and pages of names of judges to vote "yes" or "no" on. I would think some 98% of people have never heard of the judges and have no idea what kind of rulings they have made.
This is my main problem with democracy. We are leaning on the wisdom of the mob. Yet the vast majority of people are utterly unqualified to make any serious policy prescriptions concerning most/alot of the very complex issues that dominate American politics.

Like does the cashier at Walmart really have great insight on what our foreign policy should be? I know that sounds elitist as ****... but as I indicated earlier I count myself among the crowd of people who's input is probably not worthwhile/necessary in many many cases. The judge thing you mentioned is a perfect example of an area where I would be virtually clueless. Yet if I take the time to stand in line and vote for president, I'm probably going to fill the whole ballot out regardless.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2017 11:48 PM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
That is assuming that reducing voter turnout is inherently negative. If you can't even manage to get an ID then maybe you don't have your shit together enough for America to value your political insight tbh.

LMAO, yes, less people participating in the activity that our form of government is fundamentally based on is always a bad thing.

But hey, let's play this game; "If you're passionate enough to vote despite the act potentially endangering your livelihood, your political insight should be valued!".


The government doesn't have any business basing policy over whose political insight they consider valuable. A democratic government is obligated to enact policy that results in the largest voter turnout.

You're also acting as if voter ID is easy to get for everyone, it isn't.

For one thing, applying for voter ID, costs money.

So already there's a huge red flag with a policy here that potentially prevents people from voting on the basis of how much money they make.

And this has some seriously negative repercussions. If those so impoverished aren't represented in out democracy, then there's little hope of their needs being addressed.

Not to mention voter ID laws also burden the disabled, young people, ect.

There's no grounds to argue this is good policy.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:58 PM

Old Post Nov 8th, 2017 11:51 PM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
LMAO, yes, less people participating in the activity that our form of government is fundamentally based on is always a bad thing.

But hey, let's play this game; "If you're passionate enough to vote despite the act potentially endangering your livelihood, your political insight should be valued!".
Hm... while we're taking the logic to the extreme in order to make it seem absurd, perhaps you wouldn't mind answering this question?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Wait... what other ways do they use to check voters... alternative forms of identification? I thought we were discussing whether proof of identity should be required at all.


Because I'm assuming these "other ways" involve some form of documentation proving your identity. Which then, also, would exclude the people who don't have said documents for whatever reason. And by your logic, this is an inherently bad thing as well. So why should ANY proof of identity be required to vote?

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:00 AM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Hm... while we're taking the logic to the extreme in order to make it seem absurd, perhaps you wouldn't mind answering this question?

That's how fundamental principles work. You don't drop them when it's convenient, they have to be applied universally and can't be dropped because of some "end justifies the means bullsh!t".
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Because I'm assuming these "other ways" involve some form of documentation proving your identity. Which then, also, would exclude the people who don't have said documents for whatever reason. And by your logic, this is an inherently bad thing as well. So why should ANY proof of identity be required to vote?
They're less strict and easier, though yes, I don't see the point of voter identification when there's only been about 31 cases of credible allegations regarding voter fraud out of more than a billion votes casted, and the requirement takes thousands out of our democratic process, many on utterly unacceptable grounds, like it not being financially feasible to get a birth certificate.

It's pretty simple math, thousands of people vs an amount not even closing in on a hundred.

Also, so it's clear I'm not just making sh!t up, I'll source my numbers.
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-v...tion-fact-sheet

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:11 AM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

Oh and here's fox news on the matter:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...oter-fraud.html

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:15 AM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That's how fundamental principles work. You don't drop them when it's convenient, they have to be applied universally and can't be dropped because of some "end justifies the means bullsh!t".
They're less strict and easier, though yes, I don't see the point of voter identification when there's only been about 31 cases of credible allegations regarding voter fraud out of more than a billion votes casted, and the requirement takes thousands out of our democratic process, many on utterly unacceptable grounds, like it not being financially feasible to get a birth certificate.

It's pretty simple math, thousands of people vs an amount not even closing in on a hundred.

Also, so it's clear I'm not just making sh!t up, I'll source my numbers.
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-v...tion-fact-sheet
So you're saying you don't think any form of identification/verification of identity should be required to vote?

I should also add this:

quote:
They're less strict and easier, though yes, I don't see the point of voter identification
does not answer the question I asked. Do you not know, or what?

Last edited by Afro Cheese on Nov 9th, 2017 at 12:24 AM

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:21 AM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese

does not answer the question I asked. Do you not know, or what?

Here:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/electi...-documents.aspx

And yes, I don't think there's a point to reducing voter turnout to address a virtually non-existent problem. The only way you can consider this a good policy is if you think the government should make policy with the intent of getting the people they want voting to vote which more or less defeats the purpose of democracy, that people hold politicians accountable, not that politicians get to decide who holds them accountable.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:29 AM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

No, there is also the fact that if you aren't verifying who is voting then anyone could vote. Including people who are not citizens or legally eligible to vote. You can keep touting that it's a non-existent problem, but like you said yourself principals are principals. It seems to me that having a basic standard of identity verification to vote is a reasonable principal to have, considering there are some people who we quite literally do not want to allow to vote.

So I checked your source. Here's what it says:

quote:
Voters' Responsibilities
The three main types of non-documentary ID requirements that voters may be asked to satisfy are:
Affidavit: Some states, such as Iowa and Minnesota, ask voters to sign an affidavit asserting their eligibility to vote and/or awareness that falsely claiming eligibility is a criminal offense. Iowa includes the full text of its affidavit in statute. Other states provide partial texts or general guidelines.
Signature: In other states, voters must provide elections officials with a signature before casting a ballot. In most cases, this involves signing a poll book or voter registration list at the polls but there are some exceptions. For example, Oregon voters must sign the return envelope included with their mail-in ballots.
Biographical information: Voters may also be asked to provide personal information, either verbally or in writing, at the polls. In most cases, voters are asked to give their names and/or addresses. Maryland, New Mexico and (in certain circumstances) Minnesota, however, ask voters to provide full or partial birth dates.
This just seems like no verification at all. A signature? Biographical information? That's ghetto as ****. How exactly is it they verify the person who is signing/claiming to be who they say they are is legit?

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:47 AM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Afro Cheese
Senior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

And honestly... you need an ID to get a job, rent an apartment, open a bank account, etc. How is it all these people without IDs are getting by in the first place? This is what I meant when I said they don't really seem to have their shit together.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 12:50 AM
Afro Cheese is currently offline Click here to Send Afro Cheese a Private Message Find more posts by Afro Cheese Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
And honestly... you need an ID to get a job, rent an apartment, open a bank account, etc. How is it all these people without IDs are getting by in the first place? This is what I meant when I said they don't really seem to have their shit together.

Again, if the people who don't have their sh!t together don't have a voice, then we're going to be ignoring their needs by restricting them from voting.

And again, this is an "ends justify the means" approach to sh!t. You're undermining the very principle you're seeking to improve with a lack of voter fraud.
quote:

No, there is also the fact that if you aren't verifying who is voting then anyone could vote. Including people who are not citizens or legally eligible to vote. You can keep touting that it's a non-existent problem, but like you said yourself principals are principals.

Yeah, policies that restrict freedoms aren't based on principle, they are based on pragmatic effects. A democracy being clean of fraud is not a principle, it's part of an ideal version of the democratic process which remains fundamentally based on as many people as possible having a voice.

And frankly, even if you're going to frame this as the choice between two equally valuable principles, there's one principle which is being affected way more than another. Not to mention that voter id is an active action that's restricting a principle, where as a lack of voter ID is simply maintaining the democratic process our nation inherently has, so it's not really restricting anything as much as it's preserving the fundamental basis of democracy.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
It seems to me that having a basic standard of identity verification to vote is a reasonable principal to have, considering there are some people who we quite literally do not want to allow to vote.

It's not a principle, it's an improvement which is self defeating if it ends up undermining the process it's supposed to be improving.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 01:44 AM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
ArtificialGlory
God-Emperor of Eternity

Gender: Male
Location: Sanctum of Innocence

As a European, having a form of identification in order to vote is perfectly normal and logical.


__________________
And from the ashes he rose, like a black cloud. The Sin of one became the Sin of many.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 04:57 AM
ArtificialGlory is currently offline Click here to Send ArtificialGlory a Private Message Find more posts by ArtificialGlory Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
As a European, having a form of identification in order to vote is perfectly normal and logical.

-> Lowers voter turnout by thousands
-> Addresses a non existent issue

How is that logical?

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 05:01 AM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
ArtificialGlory
God-Emperor of Eternity

Gender: Male
Location: Sanctum of Innocence

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> Lowers voter turnout by thousands
-> Addresses a non existent issue

How is that logical?

Voter fraud is a very real issue where Iím from. And frankly, I find it hard to believe that itís such a non-issue in the US either.


__________________
And from the ashes he rose, like a black cloud. The Sin of one became the Sin of many.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 05:19 AM
ArtificialGlory is currently offline Click here to Send ArtificialGlory a Private Message Find more posts by ArtificialGlory Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Gender: Male
Location:

31 cases of fraud(most based on technical errors rather than the intent to deceive) out of a billion votes isn't a serious issue.

There is no logical basis for voter ID laws.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 06:23 AM
Rockydonovang is currently offline Click here to Send Rockydonovang a Private Message Find more posts by Rockydonovang Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
ArtificialGlory
God-Emperor of Eternity

Gender: Male
Location: Sanctum of Innocence

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
31 cases of fraud(most based on technical errors rather than the intent to deceive) out of a billion votes isn't a serious issue.

There is no logical basis for voter ID laws.

Itís not serious, if true. But I suspect voter fraud is much more common than statistics show. If you can just walk into a voting center and vote, no questions asked, or press a button on one of those voting machines, you can bet your ass there have been orders of magnitude more cases of voter fraud than 31 since 2000. Not sure if it warrants ID laws, but itís mind-boggingly naive to think that the 31 cases of voter fraud in the last 17 years statistic is anywhere even remotely realistic.


__________________
And from the ashes he rose, like a black cloud. The Sin of one became the Sin of many.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 06:44 AM
ArtificialGlory is currently offline Click here to Send ArtificialGlory a Private Message Find more posts by ArtificialGlory Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Stigma
Cultural Libertarian

Gender: Male
Location: Poland

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Dude, that is so ****ing retarded. Of course you should have proof of identification to vote.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I pretty much agree. It's insane that you would need ID to buy cigarettes or booze but not to vote. How exactly do they prevent minors/illegal immigrants/unregistered/felons from voting if there is no proof of identity required?

thumb up


__________________
"We do not beg for freedom. We fight for it."

---

Gen. Witold Urbanowicz, fighter ace. Member of 303 Polish Fighter Squadron, pilots that carried the Allies victory in 1940 battle of Britain

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 06:23 PM
Stigma is currently offline Click here to Send Stigma a Private Message Find more posts by Stigma Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 07:41 PM.
Pages (8): « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Home » Community » General Discussion Forum » Systematic Issues

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.