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Systematic Issues
Started by: Rockydonovang

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Rockydonovang
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Neither of those responses actually justify why we're reducing voter turnout by the thousands when there's no evidence of voter fraud even reaching the hundreds.

It's just a lazy way to dance around the fact that voter id laws do more bad than good and hence are bad policy.

Old Post Nov 9th, 2017 09:36 PM
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ArtificialGlory
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Neither of those responses actually justify why we're reducing voter turnout by the thousands when there's no evidence of voter fraud even reaching the hundreds.

It's just a lazy way to dance around the fact that voter id laws do more bad than good and hence are bad policy.

Well, I would like to see actual statistics on the matter instead of the obviously bogus, utopian statistic of 31 cases in 17 years.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 05:19 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well, I would like to see actual statistics on the matter instead of the obviously bogus, utopian statistic of 31 cases in 17 years.

I linked you to actual stats.

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 06:46 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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I must have missed it, then. The only one Iíve seen you link is the obviously nonsensical stat of 31 instances of voter fraud in 17 years from ACLU.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 06:54 AM
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Rockydonovang
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"Obviously nonsensical" is an appeal to incredulity. Unless you have legitimate gripes with the source, methodology, or contradictory evidence, you're baselessly disregarding sh!t.

It's not like illegals or non citizens are likely to risk their entire livelihoods just to put a single vote out of thousands.

I'm aware off course, that not all voter fraud would be caught, however, but that doesn't make the evidence we found "Obviously nonsencial".

As it is, If you're going to put a restriction that reduces the amount of people who participate in our democratic evidence, you need evidence that restriction is actually doing something.

That Evidence remains wholly absent and hence this law has no justification for it's existence.

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Nov 10th, 2017 at 07:07 AM

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 06:58 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"Obviously nonsensical" is an appeal to incredulity. Unless you have legitimate gripes with the source, methodology, or contradictory evidence, you're baselessly disregarding sh!t.

Well yeah, the stats are quite incredible. Incredible to the point of being absurd, actually.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 07:13 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well yeah, the stats are quite incredible. Incredible to the point of being absurd, actually.

quote:
Unless you have legitimate gripes with the source, methodology, or contradictory evidence, you're baselessly disregarding sh!t.

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 07:16 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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Yeah, my problem with the statistic is that it is utterly beyond belief and rational consideration. 31 cases in 17 years is obviously a load of horseshit. I admit that I currently do not have reliable statistics, and they may very well be very difficult to come by due to how controversial the topic is, but I can tell you one thing: itís NOT 31 cases in 17 years.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 07:24 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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I should also add that in most US states, voting works on what is basically an honour system(terrifying, if you ask me) which makes voter fraud incredibly easy to commit and incredibly hard to detect and/or account for.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 08:52 AM
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Stigma
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Neither of those responses actually justify why we're reducing voter turnout by the thousands when there's no evidence of voter fraud even reaching the hundreds.

It's just a lazy way to dance around the fact that voter id laws do more bad than good and hence are bad policy.

Let's make it simple. Can you tell me this:

Should I, as a Polish citizen, be able to vote in American elections?


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:55 AM
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Stigma
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well yeah, the stats are quite incredible. Incredible to the point of being absurd, actually.

Actually I remember reading the stats that are very different.

Voter fraud in the US in 2008 was supposedly estimated much, much higher, even possibly in millions..


EDIT:

here we go:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...r-than-estimat/

quote:
A research group in New Jersey has taken a fresh look at postelection polling data and concluded that the number of noncitizens voting illegally in U.S. elections is likely far greater than previous estimates.

As many as 5.7 million noncitizens may have voted in the 2008 election, which put Barack Obama in the White House.


__________________
"We do not beg for freedom. We fight for it."

---

Gen. Witold Urbanowicz, fighter ace. Member of 303 Polish Fighter Squadron, pilots that carried the Allies victory in 1940 battle of Britain

Last edited by Stigma on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:10 PM

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:57 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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The 5.7 million figure was debunked multiple times. It's just another extreme.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 12:24 PM
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Stigma
Cultural Libertarian

Gender: Male
Location: Poland

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
The 5.7 million figure was debunked multiple times. It's just another extreme.

I see. I may very well agree.


The point is, however, that we have two absurdities (31 cases or over 5 million) that describe the same issue. Clearly the disparacy cannot come just from research methods, but rather from bias.

In this case my suspicion is that this is a highly politicized issue and researches who lean to the either side will not be entirely impartial and would come up with numbers that they prefer.

Basically, to quote Samuel L. Jackson, "they will find a link (or not) because they were payed to do so".


My (and yours) point stands. On a logical level one cannot defend the notion of not showing your ID in a national election. thumb up


__________________
"We do not beg for freedom. We fight for it."

---

Gen. Witold Urbanowicz, fighter ace. Member of 303 Polish Fighter Squadron, pilots that carried the Allies victory in 1940 battle of Britain

Last edited by Stigma on Nov 10th, 2017 at 12:35 PM

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 12:32 PM
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ArtificialGlory
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Indeed. And as for your other point on whether you should be able to vote in American elections: no, but it would be almost trivially easy for you to do so if you were in the US during an election.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 12:53 PM
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Stigma
Cultural Libertarian

Gender: Male
Location: Poland

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Indeed. And as for your other point on whether you should be able to vote in American elections: no, but it would be almost trivially easy for you to do so if you were in the US during an election.

Agreed.

I actually was in the US in November 2012. Probably should have voted just to troll supporters of *no ID required* nonsense stick out tongue


__________________
"We do not beg for freedom. We fight for it."

---

Gen. Witold Urbanowicz, fighter ace. Member of 303 Polish Fighter Squadron, pilots that carried the Allies victory in 1940 battle of Britain

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 12:58 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
I see. I may very well agree.


The point is, however, that we have two absurdities (31 cases or over 5 million) that describe the same issue. Clearly the disparacy cannot come just from research methods, but rather from bias.

Uh, yea, false equivalency. One was debunked, the other wasn't.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
My (and yours) point stands. On a logical level one cannot defend the notion of not showing your ID in a national election. thumb up

Uh, no, you can only make a claim for logic here when you've provided some evidence that there's widespread voter fraud.

And there really is no moral way you can justify people being unable to vote on the basis of a lack of sufficient finances to pay for the sh!t you need to submit for an ID.

But hey, let's undermine the very basis of democracy for your unsubstantiated witch hunt.

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 05:42 PM
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ArtificialGlory
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Actually, if we're talking about the study done by WaPo, then it wasn't thoroughly debunked. Here's their rebuttal to the debunkers: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.76003e1a0758


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 08:37 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Actually, if we're talking about the study done by WaPo, then it wasn't thoroughly debunked. Here's their rebuttal to the debunkers: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.76003e1a0758

It won't let me read without subscribing

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 10:01 PM
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Surtur
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Get an ID, it's not suppression, just common sense. Get one. Don't whine. You aren't being suppressed from driving a car or buying booze either.

Or better yet, Rocky: describe to me the methods of attaining an ID and why you think it is too much to ask these people to get one. What part of the process is too much. Let us remove transportation, like if they can't just go to wherever they need to go to get it. We will remove that excuse, because Dems have no problem using a bus to get these people to the polls, so transportation is no excuse.

Go step by step about the process and enlighten us as to where the roadblocks come in.


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Last edited by Surtur on Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:04 PM

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:00 PM
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Afro Cheese
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Again, if the people who don't have their sh!t together don't have a voice, then we're going to be ignoring their needs by restricting them from voting.

And again, this is an "ends justify the means" approach to sh!t. You're undermining the very principle you're seeking to improve with a lack of voter fraud.

Yeah, policies that restrict freedoms aren't based on principle, they are based on pragmatic effects. A democracy being clean of fraud is not a principle, it's part of an ideal version of the democratic process which remains fundamentally based on as many people as possible having a voice.

And frankly, even if you're going to frame this as the choice between two equally valuable principles, there's one principle which is being affected way more than another. Not to mention that voter id is an active action that's restricting a principle, where as a lack of voter ID is simply maintaining the democratic process our nation inherently has, so it's not really restricting anything as much as it's preserving the fundamental basis of democracy.

It's not a principle, it's an improvement which is self defeating if it ends up undermining the process it's supposed to be improving.
You're contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you ridicule "pragmatic" reasons for having a rule, and then on the other hand you use the supposed fact that voter fraud is uncommon to justify nixing any and all security/identity verification measures. That's an argument based entirely on pragmatism.

There is no "principle" that you are arguing in favor of, other than the idea that more votes = better for democracy. But this ceases to be true if some of the votes are coming from people who aren't supposed to vote. And if you are arguing that we shouldn't have any way to ensure that this doesn't happen, then you are essentially arguing that you are in fact in favor of illegals, children, etc voting. And you're in favor of citizens voting at multiple voting stations.

It's like if a particular club has only had a few isolated cases of minors trying to get in, then you argue that we should just get rid of the necessity of ID altogether and then pretend that this doesn't in fact increase the probability that minors will be served. Essentially, you are the one arguing for an "idealized" version of democracy while ignoring the very real potential side effects of adopting such a system. Entirely illogical and emotion based argument, tbh.

If there are people out there who have really serious trouble getting an ID (a state ID costs about 10 dollars in this state...) then the solution would be to help them get IDs, if we really want them to vote. And that would help them more than just letting them vote without one, because as has been mentioned numerous times IDs are incredibly important and useful to have these days. And this would still help ensure that it's only citizens that are actually eligible to vote who would be voting.

Last edited by Afro Cheese on Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:25 PM

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:20 PM
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