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Systematic Issues
Started by: Rockydonovang

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Afro Cheese
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
Get an ID, it's not suppression, just common sense. Get one. Don't whine. You aren't being suppressed from driving a car or buying booze either.
Exactly. Now, one might say "but voting is a right and transport and booze aren't." But owning a gun is also a right. Nobody in their right mind wants to hand out guns without ID.

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:30 PM
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Surtur
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I say let us go by a step by step breakdown. Identify which part of the process of getting an ID is apparently going to cause problems.


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Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:31 PM
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Afro Cheese
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When I had to get an ID I needed 2 forms of documentation. Birth Certificate and SS card are most common but there are alternatives. It can be sort of a pain for me to get a Birth Certificate because I was born in Jersey. So it takes a month or so. Aside from that, as long as you have documentation proving who you are (which, in this day and age everyone should have) and the 10 dollars or whatever they charge in your state, getting an ID is simple as ****. The worst part about it is having to go to the DMV.

I could see certain elderly/immobile types having an issue maybe. But like you and I both mentioned an outreach program to help them get ID is a better solution than just nixing the requirement for ID.

Old Post Nov 10th, 2017 11:45 PM
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Surtur
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No doubt Rocky is going to explain the harrowing process of getting an ID.

I hear you need to travel through a haunted forest full of giant spiders just to get there.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:17 AM
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Rockydonovang
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There are people in this country who can't afford to pay the money it involves to get an ID, hence voter ID restrictions are denying people the right to vote based on how much money they have. Doing this when you don't even have any evidence there's an issue your restrictions are addressing is both a betrayal of democratic principle and utterly stupid policy.
quote:

and the 10 dollars or whatever they charge in your state, getting an ID is simple as ****.

You are aware there are people who don't even have enough money to eat? Should we disenfranchise them so that the only people who have a voice are those who wouldn't understand their struggle?

Also, totally ignoring that it costs a hundred plus for people to get birth certificates, which again, some people in this country can't afford.

quote:

Now, one might say "but voting is a right and transport and booze aren't." But owning a gun is also a right. Nobody in their right mind wants to hand out guns without ID.

There's a reason this equivalency you're trying to force is a sh!t one.

Hint: There's something here which has the capacity to directly kill other people.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:24 AM
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Surtur
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How much does an ID cost? If it's only 10 bucks, naw, not an excuse. Major elections happen every 4 years. Save up 3 bucks a year, boom 2 extra g's.

If you can't come up with that...voting is the LEAST of your problems! Why are you worried about voting when you can't afford a $10 item?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:25 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
How much does an ID cost? If it's only 10 bucks, naw, not an excuse. Major elections happen every 4 years. Save up 3 bucks a year, boom 2 extra g's.

It can cost hundred plus to get documentation you need to apply for a voting id.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
If you can't come up with that...voting is the LEAST of your problems! Why are you worried about voting when you can't afford a $10 item? [/B]

Because maybe, you feel that that the politcians in office are enacting policies which are making it very hard for you to fcking survive. And maybe, if people who feel hurt by federal policies that hurt them could vote for people less likely to enact them, then maybe they have a better chance at getting out of their current situation.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:32 AM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
It can cost hundred plus to get documentation you need to apply for a voting id.

Because maybe, you feel that that the politcians in office are enacting policies which are making it very hard for you to fcking survive. And maybe, if people who feel hurt by federal policies that hurt them could vote for people less likely to enact them, then maybe they have a better chance at getting out of their current situation.


So a state ID would NOT work, this is what you're saying? I just looked up the price for that. So you are officially saying a state ID would not be valid to vote, correct?

In my state, it's 10 for under 18, and 20 bucks for over 18. You are flat out stating this would not be considered enough to vote?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:36 AM
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Afro Cheese
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
There are people in this country who can't afford to pay the money it involves to get an ID, hence voter ID restrictions are denying people the right to vote based on how much money they have.

Doing this when you don't even have any evidence there's an issue your restrictions are addressing is both a betrayal of democratic principle and utterly stupid policy.
You keep assuming nobody would abuse the system if you don't have any verification process, but this is a baseless assumption. First, you are going to be more likely to have someone who's not supposed to vote try to vote if there is no verification process because they will know there is nothing to stop them from doing so. Second, if you just let people vote without knowing who they are it would probably still appear that there is no voter fraud going on because there's literally no way to catch them doing so.

quote:
You are aware there are people who don't even have enough money to eat? Should we disenfranchise them so that the only people who have a voice are those who wouldn't understand their struggle?
Exactly what is a politician going to do about that? You sound out of touch as **** tbh. There are extremely destitute people out there, yes. Most of the time there are much more immediate causes for this: they have a disability/mental illness, they have a substance abuse problem, they have a hard time finding work, etc. I think the more likely way to fix their problems involves a change in the way they live their own lives than some federal policy which is going to save them from above.

You could say there are people who live in remote areas and can't afford the gas to get to the polling station as well. Reality has a way of "discriminating" against such a person from being able to do a wide variety of things.

quote:
Also, totally ignoring that it costs a hundred plus for people to get birth certificates, which again, some people in this country can't afford.
You don't need a Birth certificate, that's just one of the more common forms of documentation. And it cost me like 30 dollars to get mine (from out of state as well).


quote:
There's a reason this equivalency you're trying to force is a sh!t one.

Hint: There's something here which has the capacity to directly kill other people.
My point was that just because something is a "right" doesn't mean there can be no restrictions placed on it.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:50 AM
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Afro Cheese
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
So a state ID would NOT work, this is what you're saying? I just looked up the price for that. So you are officially saying a state ID would not be valid to vote, correct?

In my state, it's 10 for under 18, and 20 bucks for over 18. You are flat out stating this would not be considered enough to vote?
He keeps oscillating between arguing against a specific "voter ID" and just having the basic requirement of some form of ID to vote.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:53 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
So a state ID would NOT work, this is what you're saying? I just looked up the price for that. So you are officially saying a state ID would not be valid to vote, correct?

In my state, it's 10 for under 18, and 20 bucks for over 18. You are flat out stating this would not be considered enough to vote?

Again, you need documentation that costs hundreds of bucks to qualify for those ID's.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:56 AM
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Afro Cheese
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You really don't.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 12:58 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote:
Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
Admittedly I should have said around a hundred but the point stands, you are literally preventing some people from voting based on their financial situation.

And again, that's not the only thing that contributing to tens of thousands of people not voting(per state) on the basis of restrictions which we have no proof are doing anything:
Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.5

There's also
quote:
States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.

And
quote:
The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 01:07 AM
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Afro Cheese
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I dunno where they are getting those estimates from. As I said I got my Birth Certificate for around 30 bucks and that was the most expensive part of the process. A SS card is actually free.

But honestly, from the beginning this argument has been about whether or not proof of identity should be required to vote. So I am open to the idea that it doesn't have to be a photo ID but just some form of documentation verifying your identity such as a SS card.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 01:19 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese

But honestly, from the beginning this argument has been about whether or not proof of identity should be required to vote. So I am open to the idea that it doesn't have to be a photo ID but just some form of documentation verifying your identity such as a SS card.

Then said documentation should be free of expense, easy to receive, and something that everyone is informed about. I could support that policy.


Here's the source:
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-v...tion-fact-sheet

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Nov 11th, 2017 at 01:28 AM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 01:23 AM
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ArtificialGlory
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
It won't let me read without subscribing

Thatís strange. Iím not a subscriber and have no problem reading the article. I guess I could just copy-paste the article if it comes down to it.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 05:57 AM
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Stigma
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This thread is growing pretty fast. I just skimmed through, but I noticed a few things.



@ Rockydonovang

I noticed you did not answer my simple question directed at you. Can you answer it? Let me repost it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
Let's make it simple. Can you tell me this:

Should I, as a Polish citizen, be able to vote in American elections?


btw [SPOILER - highlight to read]: IT'S A TRAP




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Afro Cheese

But honestly, from the beginning this argument has been about whether or not proof of identity should be required to vote. So I am open to the idea that it doesn't have to be a photo ID but just some form of documentation verifying your identity such as a SS card.

Not sure if this is a good idea tbh.

I myself have SS card and I'm not even living in the US, nor am I a US citizen.

I don't see any reason why a non-citizen of the US should be able to decide on the matters of America, like participate in election.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 09:38 AM
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socool8520
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
31 cases of fraud(most based on technical errors rather than the intent to deceive) out of a billion votes isn't a serious issue.

There is no logical basis for voter ID laws.


Have you ever stopped to think that maybe there aren't that many instances of voter fraud because there are rules in place? It makes sense logically that less people will attempt to commit an act if there is a law against it.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 10:33 AM
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socool8520
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> putting people in jail for acts that don't violate other people's rights


Such as? I assume drugs? I figure it is more for keeping you away from others when you're under the influemce so that you don't harm others (violate their rights)

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> people committing minor crimes having it put in their permanent record making it near impossible to get a job


Again, such as? If it was petty theft, you're still a criminal and have shown poor character. If you have comitted several minor crimes it also shows a trend of untrustworthy behavior that should be highlighted during the hiring process. Your actions have consequences. If you don't want unfavorable outcomes, don't do stupid things.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> not allowing ex-convicts to vote


-> utilizing prisoners for unpaid labor, aka, slavery



I do think not allowing them to vote after they have served their time is wrong.

I don't see a problem with making them work. They broke the law and are being punished. Labor is one of the ways to do so.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
-> adding requirements that lower voter turnout despite there being no evidence of widespread voter fraud

-> removing the number of places people can vote in crowded cities making it more difficult to vote

-> rezoning so that poor neiborhoods are given a disproportionately small amount of representation in local governments

Also, doesn't really count as voter suppression, but us not making election day a national holiday is the pinnacle of stupidity.


it could be said the requirements have helped combat voter fraud hence why it is so low.

The rest of these things are a problem and should be fixed.


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 10:46 AM
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Afro Cheese
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stigma
This thread is growing pretty fast. I just skimmed through, but I noticed a few things.



@ Rockydonovang

I noticed you did not answer my simple question directed at you. Can you answer it? Let me repost it.



btw [SPOILER - highlight to read]: IT'S A TRAP





Not sure if this is a good idea tbh.

I myself have SS card and I'm not even living in the US, nor am I a US citizen.

I don't see any reason why a non-citizen of the US should be able to decide on the matters of America, like participate in election.
that's weird. I thought SS cards were only for citizens; hence why illegals sometimes have to use a stolen/fake SS number to gain legit employment.

Old Post Nov 11th, 2017 05:26 PM
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