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US Prisons: How do we...
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
Hold up, hold up. I know this is off-topic, but Steve Zodiac is Whirly?


Yyyyes?

I didn't even know this was in question... confused


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 08:34 PM
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socool8520
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I didn't know who that was.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 08:35 PM
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Scribble
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yyyyes?

I didn't even know this was in question... confused
I just had no idea. Makes perfect sense though now.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 08:36 PM
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cdtm
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Re: Re: US Prisons: How do we...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
Look to the models of countries like Noway, where reoffending is low compared to the US. Prisoners with dignity and a chance to improve themselves are less likely to re-offend. Remember the removal of freedom is the punishment.


I know nothing about Norway, but are we talking about similar socio-economic backgrounds here?

A person living in a decent environment with solid job prospects vs someone living in a ghetto, huge difference.

It's like trying to compare India with Japan. Most are dirt poor in India, so of course you'll get a lot more crime/exploitation.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 08:40 PM
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dadudemon
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Re: Re: Re: US Prisons: How do we...

quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
I know nothing about Norway, but are we talking about similar socio-economic backgrounds here?

A person living in a decent environment with solid job prospects vs someone living in a ghetto, huge difference.

It's like trying to compare India with Japan. Most are dirt poor in India, so of course you'll get a lot more crime/exploitation.


This is an interesting question/point.


The theory goes:


"Yeah, well, China and India grossly under-enforce the law and their prisons are so empty because it is nearly impossible to catch, prosecute, and incarcerate all their criminals."


I honestly have no retort or rebuttal to that argument. It very well could be true. Perhaps the US is 30x more effective and catching and prosecuting criminals compared to India and China.


Perhaps someone more directly educated in Criminology could inject some intelligence into this particular point? The closest I can come to exploring this point would be the idea of arrests vs. reports. Meaning, does the US vastly differ from places like China and India, on available data on victim reports/surveys and arrests?


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 08:53 PM
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Kurk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I mean if it's drug use that doesn't violate anyone's rights then it seems pretty straightforward to not waste police resources, taxpayer money, and violate people's liberty and property to punish.
What about taxpayer money on universal healthcare? Will healthcare resources not be wasted on idiots destroying their health?


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 09:05 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
What about taxpayer money on universal healthcare? Will healthcare resources not be wasted on idiots destroying their health?


Actually!!! This is a great question. Healthcare for drug users reduces crime and saves money:


quote:
The National Treatment Improvement Evaluation Study, a congressionally mandated five-year study of the impact of drug and alcohol treatment, concluded that treatment programs result in significant reductions in criminal activity. In particular, selling drugs declined by 78%, those who supported themselves through illegal activity 48% and arrests for any crime 64%.

As if lower crime rates aren't a good enough reason to celebrate, it has been widely accepted that treatment programs are more cost-effective than traditional law enforcement strategies. This is even better news for cash-strapped states and taxpayers.

According to numerous cost-benefit analyses from groups including the National Institute on Drug Abuse, for every dollar spent on addiction treatment programs, there is an average $4 to $7 benefit to society in the form of reduced incarceration rates and associated costs of crime, much of which is a direct savings to taxpayers. Some of the more high-performing outpatient treatment programs have even estimated a 12:1 or 18:1 savings-to-cost ratio.

This is in stark contrast to calculations that one dollar spent on traditional incarceration results in only a 37-cent benefit to society in reduced drug-related crime.

Benefits of treatment are even more pronounced when addiction treatment programs are provided prior to criminal activity or in place of incarceration. One study by the Washington State Institute for Public Policy calculated that drug treatment in the community results in a savings of over $2,000 more per participant in reduced crime costs than comparable treatment in prison.

These savings are made possible in part because of the vast difference between costs of treatment and prison. Incarceration costs average $25,000 per person, per year. This doesn't even include expenditures for building new prisons to house the ever ballooning prison population. On the other hand, treatment programs cost an average of $1,583 a year, with a high of $8,000 for specialized long-term residential treatment.




https://www.forbes.com/2010/06/22/h...ml#2ae857e9632c

TL - DR summary of the above: treat drug problems reduces drug selling, recidivism, drug use, and costs much less.


This is part of why I'm such a strong advocate of legalizing all drugs and spending just 1/10th of the Drug War money on healthcare.


Is there any research out there for crime and universal healthcare? There should be a positive correlation between an inverse relationship between UHC and crime rates. That's my guess. No way that could be anything but a minimum of statistically significant.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 09:12 PM
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Emperordmb
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kurk
What about taxpayer money on universal healthcare? Will healthcare resources not be wasted on idiots destroying their health?

Well I donít believe in nationalized healthcare anyways so thatís not a part of my position.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 09:34 PM
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Kurk
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Damn, I wish Duterte was our president. He personally rides around on a motorcycle and kills methheads and their dealers.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 09:35 PM
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Robtard
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He's also likely the biggest drug dealer in the Philippines, so you might want to check your mancrush


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 10:14 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by socool8520
I thought he was Stop the Hate


He is lol, and other names too. He has been banned many times. Yet he is allowed to post, while certain other socks aren't. Weird.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 10:32 PM
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Surtur
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Duterte is a piece of dog shit.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 10:33 PM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Robtard
He's also likely the biggest drug dealer in the Philippines, so you might want to check your mancrush


h-how does that even make sense? why would a dealer kill all his customers? confused

Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 10:49 PM
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Scribble
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
He is lol, and other names too. He has been banned many times. Yet he is allowed to post, while certain other socks aren't. Weird.
Back in't' day, a classic Whirly would last around 1 or 2 minutes. And there were thousands.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 10:50 PM
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Surtur
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
h-how does that even make sense? why would a dealer kill all his customers? confused


The drug he deals is DEATH!!!


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 10:57 PM
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BackFire
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A few things to improve our prison system.

1. Ditch for profit prisons. They have no actual benefit to society and are counter productive. If someone is profiting off of someone else being incarcerated then there will inevitably be a conflict of interest. It's unavoidable.

2. Minimize/remove non violent drug offenses. No one should do hard time for doing a drug in their own home. Instead, legalize things like weed and treat it as we treat alcohol and tobacco, both of which are more harmful than weed. Tax it, regulate it. For other harder drugs, instead of sending users to do hard time, send them to get help for their addictions. The goal should be to get them off drugs, not ruin their lives even more.

3. The goal for everything should be rehabilitation if it is at all possible rather than stark punishment. Once someone has been rehabilitated get them out of the prison system and back into society on the grounds that they have to contribute in some way - join the military, make sure they have a job, go to school, etc.

There should also be no mandatory minimum sentences. Those things are stupid and achieve diddly shit.


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Last edited by BackFire on Nov 21st, 2017 at 11:11 PM

Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 11:08 PM
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Surtur
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All I'm gonna say is...why don't we take child molesters and murderers and execute them and harvest their body parts for organ donations?


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 11:16 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BackFire
A few things to improve our prison system.

1. Ditch for profit prisons. They have no actual benefit to society and are counter productive. If someone is profiting off of someone else being incarcerated then there will inevitably be a conflict of interest. It's unavoidable.

2. Minimize/remove non violent drug offenses. No one should do hard time for doing a drug in their own home. Instead, legalize things like weed and treat it as we treat alcohol and tobacco, both of which are more harmful than weed. Tax it, regulate it. For other harder drugs, instead of sending users to do hard time, send them to get help for their addictions. The goal should be to get them off drugs, not ruin their lives even more.

3. The goal for everything should be rehabilitation if it is at all possible rather than stark punishment. Once someone has been rehabilitated get them out of the prison system and back into society on the grounds that they have to contribute in some way - join the military, make sure they have a job, go to school, etc.

There should also be no mandatory minimum sentences. Those things are stupid and achieve diddly shit.


These things all make sense, and I wish there was a way to reform the system.

I mean, try telling the people profiting off the system "Hey, you shouldn't be profiting off this!"

Or worse, tell the people we need to jack up taxes to pay for better, more humane prisons. And then making sure the administrators and legislators properly use those funds..

Biggest problem is motive. Profit, EVERYONE is for it. But sacrificing for a social good..? If anyone's really motivated by abstract ethics, there sure doesn't seem to be enough of them.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 11:26 PM
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Scribble
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Surtur
All I'm gonna say is...why don't we take child molesters and murderers and execute them and harvest their body parts for organ donations?
Alright there, Lawful Evil.


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Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 11:28 PM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Scribble
Alright there, Lawful Evil.


I'd trade a world of lawful evil over the neutral evil/chaotic evil we seem to have now.

At least those who suffer cruel and unusual punishment's will mostly deserve them for a change.. (Vs the opposition "true neutral", or "lawful good" we have now, who basically send the evil murderers and rapists of the world into a cell with cable TV.. Rest in hell, Charles Manson..)


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Last edited by cdtm on Nov 21st, 2017 at 11:38 PM

Old Post Nov 21st, 2017 11:33 PM
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