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GT vs. DBS
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Galan007
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Y'all are welcome to your opinions, but frankly, I believe the multipliers being thrown around for DBS here are vastly overinflated, to say the least... Especially without having any canon evidence to help substantiate these claims.

I mean, it is a WELL established fact that if you are 'just' 2-4x > your opponent, you can dominate them with almost NO effort at all... Hell, SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than Freeza on Namek, yet he still stomped him quite easily in the manga. What I'm saying is: the characters in DBS don't *have* to be 'hundreds of thousands' of times more powerful than they were in Z for their God-level powers to be considered as vast as they are.

NewGuy's analogy was spot on, imo: SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power... And frankly that *would* still be true, considering his power seemed to have plateaued before attaining godhood. After all, Beerus initially stated that base Goku was still WEAKER than Freeza... Which tells us that Goku's base power(which is what the SSJ multipliers build from) had increased LESS THAN 50x in the ~16 years of constant training between the Namek saga and the beginning of BoG.


Just some food for thought. /shrug


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Old Post Nov 26th, 2017 10:42 PM
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cdtm
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Pre SSJ Goku also fended off Freeza with a much lower power level.

And he managed to keep from dying against Radditz for some time, and even managed to hold him in a full nelson.

The instances where a small increase made a dramatic difference, are when it was Goku or Vegeta with the advantage.

Then there's Nappa being given a fair struggle against skilled Earthlings.

That's plenty of proof PL isn't everything. Skill + PL is where you get your stomps.


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Old Post Nov 26th, 2017 10:56 PM
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carver9
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It was said during the beginning of Super that Goku base level carries God power. This is why he tends to fight well in this form against powerful opponents.


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Old Post Nov 26th, 2017 11:13 PM
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cdtm
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That was said in the movie, the anime retcons this. Just like it retcons the 70% for Beerus.


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Old Post Nov 26th, 2017 11:15 PM
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Kento
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Y'all are welcome to your opinions, but frankly, I believe the multipliers being thrown around for DBS here are vastly overinflated, to say the least... Especially without having any canon evidence to help substantiate these claims.

I mean, it is a WELL established fact that if you are 'just' 2-4x > your opponent, you can dominate them with almost NO effort at all... Hell, SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than Freeza on Namek, yet he still stomped him quite easily in the manga. What I'm saying is: the characters in DBS don't *have* to be 'hundreds of thousands' of times more powerful than they were in Z for their God-level powers to be considered as vast as they are.

NewGuy's analogy was spot on, imo: SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power... And frankly that *would* still be true, considering his power seemed to have plateaued before attaining godhood. After all, Beerus initially stated that base Goku was still WEAKER than Freeza... Which tells us that Goku's base power(which is what the SSJ multipliers build from) had increased LESS THAN 50x in the ~16 years of constant training between the Namek saga and the beginning of BoG.


Just some food for thought. /shrug
How do I not have any canon evidence to show my claims?

Also, his base in BoG is irrelevant when we've seen what they can do in base from RoF arc, and in Vegeta's clone arc, and on.

Also, I'm talking specifically anime, cause if you go in the manga route, then Goku doesn't even compare to GT. And makes a lot more sense power scale wise.

But Super the anime, and GT both have absurd power scaling.


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2017 12:08 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kento
How do I not have any canon evidence to show my claims?
Because you have no way of proving/legitimizing most of the multipliers you're throwing around..? As mentioned: it's mostly just personal opinion/conjecture at this point, because NO DBS/God-era multipliers have been referenced in any canon source(s).


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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 28th, 2017 at 12:02 AM

Old Post Nov 27th, 2017 11:57 PM
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NewGuy01
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Not true; the gap between SSJG and SSJB was stated to be less than 10x in the manga. Other than that, no.

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 01:26 AM
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Galan007
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Yeah, that was the implication in the manga when Whis and Beerus explain that Vegeta's 2nd use of SSB against Hit made him less than 1/10th of normal SSB, and under SSG... Implying that SSB is around 10x SSG:
(please log in to view the image)

...Which is a pretty far cry from some of the theoretical multipliers being thrown around in this thread.



Additionally, Goku still considers SSB to be a "HUGE" boost over SSG:
(please log in to view the image)

So if you take the dialogue of Whis and Beerus at face value(doubting Whis in particular would be lulz-worthy, btw), then it coincides with what you and I have been saying: God-era multipliers do not *have* to be in the hundreds of thousands for the Z Fighters to view them as gargantuan boosts... Not when a ~10x increase is still regarded as "HUGE" by Goku himself. /shrug


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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 28th, 2017 at 03:24 AM

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 03:11 AM
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NewGuy01
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, that was the implication in the manga when Whis and Beerus explain that Vegeta's 2nd use of SSB against Hit made him less than 1/10th of normal SSB, and under SSG... Implying that SSB is around 10x SSG:


And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.

quote:
God-era multipliers do not *have* to be in the hundreds of thousands for the Z Fighters to view them as gargantuan boosts... Not when a ~10x increase is still regarded as "HUGE" by Goku himself. /shrug


To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

The killer is that GT Goku is just stronger at the base level.

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 04:58 AM
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Damborgson
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What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 05:16 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.
Great point thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.
To be even fairer (stick out tongue)-

That blurb about Vegetto 'perhaps' being more powerful than SSJ4 is from GT Perfect Files -- the same guidebook that stated SSJ2 was never seen again after the Cell saga, lol. It is widely considered to be an extremely unreliable source(even by Herms) -- certainly not an irrefutable reference, like the Daizenshuu, Super-Exciting Guide, V-Jump, etc.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 28th, 2017 at 05:59 AM

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 05:56 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?
Nearly impossible to say. Some of the older guidebooks mentioned that Potara fusion was akin to BPxBP(ie. if the 2 beings who fused each had a BP of 1000, the finished fusion's BP would be 1000000.) In practice, however, the increase gleaned from Potara fusion isn't a set multiplier at all, as it varies wildly from pair-to-pair.

It is honestly one of the more inconsistent powerups in the franchise, imo(especially since DBS has started using the shit out of it.) /shrug


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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 28th, 2017 at 06:04 AM

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 06:01 AM
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ares834
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Super.

GT may have higher multipliers, but Super seems to have retroactively raised the power of the DBZ characters because of their absurd feats in Super.


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 06:31 AM
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NewGuy01
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I personally like the number 80x, for general use, assuming the participants' power levels are equal. It puts base Vegetto around SSJ2 Goku level, and Super Vegetto around 10x SSJ3 Goku level, which sound about right to me personally.

Although, in a sense, the reason Vegetto is so strong isn't just because of his power. As a warrior, he's said to possess both the raw battle instinct of Goku and the focus of Vegeta, making him extremely effective skill-wise. So you could say in the case that the fusees are less compatible, the strength increase could be dramatically lower, although that's frustratingly not looking to be the case with Kefla and all.

The "power multiplication" theory is just bogus though. The ridiculously high numbers you could get out of it aside, it's just arbitrary. Say you used a different metric to describe Goku's and Vegeta's power; what if you qualified each as a "1" on a different scale? Then if you multiplied those, their power wouldn't change at all. A fusion multiplier that relies on the metric used to gauge the involved parties doesn't strike me as all that credible, tbh.

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 06:45 AM
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Kento
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Because you have no way of proving/legitimizing most of the multipliers you're throwing around..? As mentioned: it's mostly just personal opinion/conjecture at this point, because NO DBS/God-era multipliers have been referenced in any canon source(s).
The only ones that don't have set multipliers are ssg and ssb... and I use the lowest possible multiplier anything can give at 2x.

It's conjecture but it can't be any lower than that.


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 09:13 AM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?


Varies. The old KIoshin practically admitted there isn't a set boost when he claimed Vegetto was especially amped on account of Goku and Vegeta being rivals.


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 12:45 PM
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bbrem123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.



To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

The killer is that GT Goku is just stronger at the base level.



Pretty sure they said Vegeta could not perform at even 10% of his power.

We also have Goku's recent fight with Kefla. SSG was getting beat by base Kefla. SSB was then fighting LSSJ Kefla to nearly a stand still. This is a Kefla that is x50 her base. (going by established DB multipliers) The mulitplier may even be higher since it is a LSSJ form. So one can only assume that a MSSB is at least x50 SSG.


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Last edited by bbrem123 on Nov 28th, 2017 at 02:01 PM

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 01:59 PM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bbrem123
Pretty sure they said Vegeta could not perform at even 10% of his power.

We also have Goku's recent fight with Kefla. SSG was getting beat by base Kefla. SSB was then fighting LSSJ Kefla to nearly a stand still. This is a Kefla that is x50 her base. (going by established DB multipliers) The mulitplier may even be higher since it is a LSSJ form. So one can only assume that a MSSB is at least x50 SSG.


You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that.


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 02:12 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that.
Goodness. Some of you are still having a painfully hard time grasping the concept that the multipliers simply do not *have* to be extremely high digits for [vast] differences like that to still exist, and I'm not sure why..? Is it because you already have these grand preconceived multipliers in your head(s)..?


Regardless, another prime example is: ASSJ Vegeta vs. Perfect Cell; and FPSSJ Goku vs. Perfect Cell.

All-out strikes from an enraged ASSJ Vegeta were incapable of making Perfect Cell(who hadn't even began to powerup, mind you) so much as flinch. Conversely, FPSSJ Goku was able to give Perfect Cell(who was still suppressing his power, but not nearly as much) a very good fight -- his strikes definitely had a pronounced effect.

I bring this up because the difference between FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta was probably around 2-3x(maybe less considering how flabbergasted the Z Fighters were at the 2x amp Gohan gleaned from SSJ2.) IOW, the difference between them was relatively minimal, yet their fights against Cell were WORLDS apart.


...Not sure why it's so hard for some of you to picture the same basic principal applying to God-era powerups..? confused


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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 28th, 2017 at 02:55 PM

Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 02:48 PM
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cdtm
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So, if Vegeta is a 400, Goku is 1200?

That kind of difference?

That's about where Radditz was to Goku. So if Vegeta is about that difference to Goku, yet Goku has a tremendously more effective attack on Cell (Who was powered up against Goku, but not against Vegeta), can we chalk this up as another example of inconsistency?


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2017 02:55 PM
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