They aren't transformations, per se(though the power-weighted version could certainly be seen as such, given the extreme physical change) -- they're essentially just various levels of Perfect Cell's power.
First and foremost, Cell has the potential of Goku/Vegeta AND Freeza -- and we've seen the tremendous leaps they can make in very short periods of time ala DBS. He's also got Freeza's ability to *survive* damn near ANY injury, and Piccolo's ability to *heal* damn near ANY injury. On top of that, we know Cell's body has the innate ability of 'keeping' power after sampling it(that's why he still grew back into his 'Perfect' form, even without #18) -- not to mention the Saiyan trait of receiving zenkais from battle/injury, and becoming more and more powerful as the fight progresses... So knowing what we know now, just imagine what Cell could accomplish with the same 4 months of training as Freeza!? F*cking insane...
The only other character in the franchise with *that* sort of latent potential is Pure Boo, imo. Think about it: Pure Boo was already SSJ3 Goku-level, and I highly doubt that he had ever formally trained a day in his life -- all he did for eons was go through random periods of destruction and hibernation, until Bibidi found a way seal him in the 'Boo-Ball'. Thus, any increases in power that Pure Boo gained over the years were from either a.) his ability to adapt/evolve to his opponents on the fly, or b.) via absorption... So just imagine if he were to buckle down and actually train for a while..? I believe his gains would blow those of even Freeza out of the water.
And on that note, I'd bet that's why Oob will be so special in the future. He is the [good hearted] reincarnation of Pure Boo, after all, so he should have Boo's level of latent potential. Even factoring in the events of DBS thus far, it makes sense why EoZ Goku would be so excited at the thought of training Oob -- the potential there is staggering, tbh.
Gender: Male Location: Some abandoned space station
We did have Fat Buu train a bit prior to the tournament where he quickly lost weight and became “Fit Buu” for a short time, and gave Goku a run for his money in a little spar (ringed him out), but of course with how Toei likes to treat Buu, they had him go in a deep sleep again at the last minute so he wouldn’t be part of the main action. Sure, Frieza coming in was a neat tradeoff and all, but doesn’t really excuse the repeated neglect for Buu, which one could argue is even worse than how Tien got shafted.
After all, we know SSJ2 Majin Vegeta wasn't powerful enough to beat/kill Fat Boo, but we do know SSJ3 Goku could have done so with a fair bit of ease... And Goku was absolutely confident that the boys would also be able to defeat Fat Boo within 30mins if they fused: https://i.imgur.com/OxnU3ET.jpg
*Remember, Goku would have only been able to approximate the output of SSJ1 Gotenks at the time, based on the max ki outputs of SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks(which he had obviously saw/sensed at that point.) Moreover, Goku was wholly against sending the boys into the RoSaT, so he wasn't theorizing what their fused power might become with training either. As he put it: "that's just how powerful fusion is!"
However, some people argue that pre-RoSaT Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, based on Goku telling Fat Boo that "someone stronger than him"(ie. Gotenks) would fight Boo in two days: https://i.imgur.com/7YSJi8C.jpg
Personally, I'm inclined to think Goku was just bluffing there because he knew Boo would take the bait, which would give the boys more time to perfect the fusion dance. /shrug
Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 24th, 2018 at 01:27 AM
Yeah,I had him at ssj3 Goku too, although it might've been a lowball, as it would imply that base gotenks is MUCH weaker than a fpssj Goku or Veget (assuming his ssJ form equaled SSJ3 goku,he would be 8X above base Goku in his own base form, meaning,he would be roughly 6X weaker than FPssj goku,I doubt so trunks or gotenks are THST Much weaker,let alone gotenks).
Seeing as gotenks matched/surpassed his previous SSJ form, from statements from piccolo and trunks, piccolo especially as he didn't know they could enter super Saiyan after fusing in Base
Post ROSAT base gotenks> Pre ROSAT ssj gotenks>= SSJ3 Goku
Since we don't have a definite value for how Much stronger,I assume base gotenks is equal to his pre ssj form which would be equal to a ssj3 Goku
Base gotenks POST= ssj3 Goku/ssj gotenks PRE
SSJ3 gotenks would be 400X SSJ3 Goku
Now in super, from the copy Vegeta arc
Base Vegeta/Goku are stronger than SsJ3 gotenks
Assuming they were equal (lowball)
That puts their base at 400X SSJ3 goku from Z
KKX20 = 20X base
Ssj = 50X base
Ssj 2 = 100X base
SsJ 3 = 400X base
Base KKX20 Goku would be 8,000X SSJ3 DBZ goku
SSJ2 Vegeta would be 40,000X SSJ3 DBZ Goku
SSJ3 DBS Goku would be 160,000X SSJ3 DBZ Goku
Now, on to god ki forms
SSG is an unknown variable, however we can infer the absolute lowball minimum, it does not stack on Normal ssJ forms, it's a separate transformation on its own and does not depend on whatever previous form you were in, thus any calc stacking the boost of SSJ3 to SSG shouldn't be correct (unless I am wrong)
Thus,we have these separate transformations
Base - SSJ - SSJ2 - SSJ3
Base - SSG - SSB - SSBE/SSBKKX20
Base - UI - MUI
On this note, we know ONE absolute fact, SSG is far above SSJ3 in terms of power boost
But I am going to lowball and say it's 1.5X a SSJ3 boost
Thus SSG Goku would be equal to SSJ3 DBS Goku X 1.5 which equates to 240,000X SSJ3 DBZ goki
Now SSB's power increase from the manga is rougly 10X SSG, it doesn't contradict the anime either in any way,so I'll use that
SSB Goku = 10X SSG goku = 2.4 million X SSJ3 DBZ Goku
I mean,these numbers I am getting,I've lowballed as much as I can, if I made a mistake somewhere please let me know
SSBE/SSBKKX20 = 20 X 2.4 million = 48 million X SSJ3
As for UI/MUI
I'll lowball and assume the following
UI = 1.5X SSBKKX20
MUI = 1.5X UI
Which puts ;
UI Goku at 1.5 X 48 million = 72 million X SSJ3 DBZ goku
MUI Goku at 1.5 X 72 million = 96 million X SSJ3 DBZ Goku
These numbers are ridiculously high,I know, but I've lowballed as much as possible, and I don't think I was wrong here
I did this with my phone,so it may not be up to standard
The powers/scaling in DBS are so wildly inconsistent that it's extremely hard to gauge them with any sort of accuracy(the power Goku and Vegeta display in their various forms seems to fluctuate considerably from arc to arc)... And considering that Gotenks has become little more than a fodder/joke character, I also wouldn't put much stock in a scaling system that uses him as its primary measuring stick, tbh. Toriyama is clearly no longer attempting to write him as anything but comedic relief these days. /shrug
Gotenks was never stated to have gotten weaker,everyone around him ,from Goku to 17 got high powerups, and Vegeta's destruction of the ROSAT in base casually further emboldens his comparison with ssj3 gotenks/super buu. So I'd say using DBZ gotenks as a benchmark isn't wrong IMO
In BoG, for example, Beerus fought Gotenks(in the manga he even fought SSJ3 Gotenks), yet still regarded SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta(rage-boost) as the most powerful beings he fought until Goku attained SSG.
...And given that as of DBS, the BoG arc is set a mere 6 months after the Boo saga, I doubt Goku was intended to have become hundreds of times more powerful than he was in Z in order to have surpassed Gotenks. In fact, I know he wasn't, because his base form was still WEAKER than Freeza at the time.
As mentioned, Toriyama seems to have just changed his mind regarding where Gotenks now ranks in comparison to the adults. He does shit like this all the time, unfortunately. /shrug
Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 24th, 2018 at 08:10 PM
Gotenks didn't go ssj3 in the anime. And Goku being weaker than frieza in base was made by beerus,same guy who apparently said ssj3 Goku and ssj2 Vegeta were the strongest he had fought (I don't remember this,but I'll take your word for it),seems the only inconsistency is beerus' own statement in BOG. And his analysis was based on reviewing a base, ground state Goku,I doubt Goku flared up his ki to 100% in base when beerus made that comment,we have seen that a ki flare up is necessary to access 100%,be it cell,frieza,Buu,etc
But even assuming BOG remained the same power levels according to Z
In ROF, base Goku matched a much stronger final form frieza,
In copy Vegeta arc, base Goku/vegeta is shown directly to be
above SSJ3 gotenks
Base Vegeta matches and exceeds a feat done by ssj3 gotenks/super buu
More than one feat places them above gotenks
And BTW, I NEVER said BOG was the one that was several times more powerful, Goku and Vegeta went through heaps of training from BOG till now.
I mean,in your scaling,your premise begins with Goku comparing rildo to Buu,which matching him in base. I don't see why several feats showing Goku/Vegeta's base superiority over gotenks can't be seen
At the very least,they are stronger than a previous SSJ3 form
Saying toriyama changed his mind on gotenks doesn't take away the fact that they ARE stronger than he is right now.and he DIDNT get weaker