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GT vs. DBS
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DeadpoolXXX
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Thx for all the responses guy! super fun reading all of this! big grin

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Not exactly. Cell was treating FPSSJ Goku like an equal/peer, even though he [Cell] still wasn't using his full power during their fight.

ASSJ Vegeta was unable to faze a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell. USSJ Trunks was stated to be more powerful than that SAME, heavily suppressed, Perfect Cell.

After all, we know Cell wasn't implying that USSJ Trunks > his own *maximum* power, because at the end of their battle Cell displayed the SAME USSJ-esque transformation/amp as Trunks, just to mock him:
https://i.imgur.com/fBiZvzP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U5Wve8Y.jpg
IOW, at any point Cell could have bulked-up and started cranking out the same raw ki as USSJ Trunks -- he simply *chose* not to. Based on that alone we know, for a fact, that Cell was only comparing USSJ Trunks to his current, heavily suppressed level... Because even that bulked-up form was still nowhere near his 'full' power.

As mentioned above: Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin simply would not have been awestruck by the ki FPSSJ Goku was generating if USSJ Trunks had already generated a ki =/> full power Perfect Cell. Heck, Krillin(who personally sensed the power of USSJ Trunks at ground zero) explicitly stated: "[Goku's] CHI is immeasurable..! He's beyond ALL of us!":
https://i.imgur.com/rIOkTbD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cWpmt9Q.jpg
*And that's aside from Trunks himself(after training in the RoSaT a SECOND time, mind you) stating that Goku's chi was "unbelievable"...


tl;dr
All context considered, this is how I view the *raw ki* output of these characters:
Perfect Cell(power-weighted) > Perfect Cell(full power) > Perfect Cell(slightly suppressed) ~ FPSSJ Goku >>> USSJ Trunks = Perfect Cell(bulked-up) > Perfect Cell(heavily suppressed) >>> ASSJ Vegeta.


maybe its just cus i havent read or watched the cell saga for a long time, but I didn't realize prefect Cell had so many different transformations and levels. good stuff tho. big grin


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Old Post Nov 29th, 2017 02:11 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
maybe its just cus i havent read or watched the cell saga for a long time, but I didn't realize prefect Cell had so many different transformations and levels. good stuff tho. big grin
They aren't transformations, per se(though the power-weighted version could certainly be seen as such, given the extreme physical change) -- they're essentially just various levels of Perfect Cell's power.

This is 'power-weighted' Cell- seen when he became enraged with SSJ2 Gohan:
https://i.imgur.com/gEWxyaC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9tiPVDA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kynxKZl.jpg

This is Cell's 'full power'- seen against SSJ2 Gohan:
https://i.imgur.com/uSwhlK9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xZQIjI7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oK14gSL.jpg

This is Cell's 'slightly suppressed' state- seen when he powered up substantially against FPSSJ Goku:
https://i.imgur.com/csNvDdy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B8bdseb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yjfMktR.jpg

This, again, is Cell's 'bulked-up/USSJ-esque' power- seen when he trolled Trunks:
https://i.imgur.com/fBiZvzP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U5Wve8Y.jpg

This is Cell's 'heavily suppressed' state- seen just after absorbing #18, and fighting ASSJ Vegeta + USSJ Trunks w/o ever powering up:
https://i.imgur.com/c9qR2kA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ib9IGPy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wBDVm2N.jpg


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Old Post Nov 29th, 2017 02:54 AM
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Inedian
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Cell would reach SSBx20KK in two months.

Old Post Nov 29th, 2017 11:01 AM
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Galan007
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No joke.

First and foremost, Cell has the potential of Goku/Vegeta AND Freeza -- and we've seen the tremendous leaps they can make in very short periods of time ala DBS. He's also got Freeza's ability to *survive* damn near ANY injury, and Piccolo's ability to *heal* damn near ANY injury. On top of that, we know Cell's body has the innate ability of 'keeping' power after sampling it(that's why he still grew back into his 'Perfect' form, even without #18) -- not to mention the Saiyan trait of receiving zenkais from battle/injury, and becoming more and more powerful as the fight progresses... So knowing what we know now, just imagine what Cell could accomplish with the same 4 months of training as Freeza!? F*cking insane... messed


The only other character in the franchise with *that* sort of latent potential is Pure Boo, imo. Think about it: Pure Boo was already SSJ3 Goku-level, and I highly doubt that he had ever formally trained a day in his life -- all he did for eons was go through random periods of destruction and hibernation, until Bibidi found a way seal him in the 'Boo-Ball'. Thus, any increases in power that Pure Boo gained over the years were from either a.) his ability to adapt/evolve to his opponents on the fly, or b.) via absorption... So just imagine if he were to buckle down and actually train for a while..? I believe his gains would blow those of even Freeza out of the water.

And on that note, I'd bet that's why Oob will be so special in the future. He is the [good hearted] reincarnation of Pure Boo, after all, so he should have Boo's level of latent potential. Even factoring in the events of DBS thus far, it makes sense why EoZ Goku would be so excited at the thought of training Oob -- the potential there is staggering, tbh.


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Old Post Nov 29th, 2017 04:13 PM
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We did have Fat Buu train a bit prior to the tournament where he quickly lost weight and became “Fit Buu” for a short time, and gave Goku a run for his money in a little spar (ringed him out), but of course with how Toei likes to treat Buu, they had him go in a deep sleep again at the last minute so he wouldn’t be part of the main action. Sure, Frieza coming in was a neat tradeoff and all, but doesn’t really excuse the repeated neglect for Buu, which one could argue is even worse than how Tien got shafted.


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Old Post Nov 29th, 2017 08:40 PM
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StiltmanFTW
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
True. thumb up


Base GT Goku also effortlessly trounced Cell(I'm assuming he would've still been SPC) and Freeza, as though they were laughably weak fodder. What's more, Cell and Freeza had both been training extensively, and were each a good deal more powerful than they originally were.

*And for what it's worth- even at the start of BoG/DBS, base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. So yeah...


Don't forget about this...



Base Goku beat the SSJ out of Gohan and Goten, when they were controlled by Baby.


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Old Post Dec 10th, 2017 11:50 AM
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bump


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Old Post Dec 22nd, 2018 01:32 AM
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Genii96
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that.



Dude
A 1.5X PL difference can achieve this lol. SSJ2 is only 2X normal super Saiyan, yet Gohan absolutely murked perfect cell,who was above the FPSSJ level

Old Post Dec 23rd, 2018 12:40 PM
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Where would you put Pre ROSAT ssj gotenks in relation to DBZ Goku and Vegeta?

Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 12:19 AM
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Galan007
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Probably around the level of SSJ3 Goku, imo.

After all, we know SSJ2 Majin Vegeta wasn't powerful enough to beat/kill Fat Boo, but we do know SSJ3 Goku could have done so with a fair bit of ease... And Goku was absolutely confident that the boys would also be able to defeat Fat Boo within 30mins if they fused:
https://i.imgur.com/OxnU3ET.jpg
*Remember, Goku would have only been able to approximate the output of SSJ1 Gotenks at the time, based on the max ki outputs of SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks(which he had obviously saw/sensed at that point.) Moreover, Goku was wholly against sending the boys into the RoSaT, so he wasn't theorizing what their fused power might become with training either. As he put it: "that's just how powerful fusion is!"

However, some people argue that pre-RoSaT Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, based on Goku telling Fat Boo that "someone stronger than him"(ie. Gotenks) would fight Boo in two days:
https://i.imgur.com/7YSJi8C.jpg
Personally, I'm inclined to think Goku was just bluffing there because he knew Boo would take the bait, which would give the boys more time to perfect the fusion dance. /shrug


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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 24th, 2018 at 01:27 AM

Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 01:11 AM
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Genii96
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Probably around the level of SSJ3 Goku, imo.

After all, we know SSJ2 Majin Vegeta wasn't powerful enough to beat/kill Fat Boo, but we do know SSJ3 Goku could have done so with a fair bit of ease... And Goku was absolutely confident that the boys would also be able to defeat Fat Boo within 30mins if they fused:
https://i.imgur.com/OxnU3ET.jpg
*Remember, Goku would have only been able to approximate the output of SSJ1 Gotenks at the time, based on the max ki outputs of SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks(which he had obviously saw/sensed at that point.) Moreover, Goku was wholly against sending the boys into the RoSaT, so he wasn't theorizing what their fused power might become with training either. As he put it: "that's just how powerful fusion is!"

However, some people argue that pre-RoSaT Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, based on Goku telling Fat Boo that "someone stronger than him"(ie. Gotenks) would fight Boo in two days:
https://i.imgur.com/7YSJi8C.jpg
Personally, I'm inclined to think Goku was just bluffing there because he knew Boo would take the bait, which would give the boys more time to perfect the fusion dance. /shrug



Yeah,I had him at ssj3 Goku too, although it might've been a lowball, as it would imply that base gotenks is MUCH weaker than a fpssj Goku or Veget (assuming his ssJ form equaled SSJ3 goku,he would be 8X above base Goku in his own base form, meaning,he would be roughly 6X weaker than FPssj goku,I doubt so trunks or gotenks are THST Much weaker,let alone gotenks).


Seeing as gotenks matched/surpassed his previous SSJ form, from statements from piccolo and trunks, piccolo especially as he didn't know they could enter super Saiyan after fusing in Base


Basically
Post ROSAT base gotenks> Pre ROSAT ssj gotenks>= SSJ3 Goku
Since we don't have a definite value for how Much stronger,I assume base gotenks is equal to his pre ssj form which would be equal to a ssj3 Goku


Meaning,
Base gotenks POST= ssj3 Goku/ssj gotenks PRE
SSJ3 gotenks would be 400X SSJ3 Goku


Now in super, from the copy Vegeta arc
Base Vegeta/Goku are stronger than SsJ3 gotenks
Assuming they were equal (lowball)

That puts their base at 400X SSJ3 goku from Z

KKX20 = 20X base
Ssj = 50X base
Ssj 2 = 100X base
SsJ 3 = 400X base


Meaning
Base KKX20 Goku would be 8,000X SSJ3 DBZ goku
SSJ2 Vegeta would be 40,000X SSJ3 DBZ Goku
SSJ3 DBS Goku would be 160,000X SSJ3 DBZ Goku


Now, on to god ki forms

SSG is an unknown variable, however we can infer the absolute lowball minimum, it does not stack on Normal ssJ forms, it's a separate transformation on its own and does not depend on whatever previous form you were in, thus any calc stacking the boost of SSJ3 to SSG shouldn't be correct (unless I am wrong)

Thus,we have these separate transformations

Base - SSJ - SSJ2 - SSJ3
Base - SSG - SSB - SSBE/SSBKKX20
Base - UI - MUI



On this note, we know ONE absolute fact, SSG is far above SSJ3 in terms of power boost

But I am going to lowball and say it's 1.5X a SSJ3 boost

Thus SSG Goku would be equal to SSJ3 DBS Goku X 1.5 which equates to 240,000X SSJ3 DBZ goki

Now SSB's power increase from the manga is rougly 10X SSG, it doesn't contradict the anime either in any way,so I'll use that

SSB Goku = 10X SSG goku = 2.4 million X SSJ3 DBZ Goku



I mean,these numbers I am getting,I've lowballed as much as I can, if I made a mistake somewhere please let me know


SSBE/SSBKKX20 = 20 X 2.4 million = 48 million X SSJ3

As for UI/MUI

I'll lowball and assume the following
UI = 1.5X SSBKKX20
MUI = 1.5X UI


Which puts ;
UI Goku at 1.5 X 48 million = 72 million X SSJ3 DBZ goku
MUI Goku at 1.5 X 72 million = 96 million X SSJ3 DBZ Goku




These numbers are ridiculously high,I know, but I've lowballed as much as possible, and I don't think I was wrong here

I did this with my phone,so it may not be up to standard

Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 08:07 AM
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Galan007
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The powers/scaling in DBS are so wildly inconsistent that it's extremely hard to gauge them with any sort of accuracy(the power Goku and Vegeta display in their various forms seems to fluctuate considerably from arc to arc)... And considering that Gotenks has become little more than a fodder/joke character, I also wouldn't put much stock in a scaling system that uses him as its primary measuring stick, tbh. Toriyama is clearly no longer attempting to write him as anything but comedic relief these days. /shrug


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 04:20 PM
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BrolyBlack
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
[nerdery]

Honestly depends how high you 'power scale' DBS forms/powers like SSG, SSB, MSSB, GoDs, etc.



But if you take all statements made in GT at face value, this is how the power scaling looks...

*Kid Goku stated that base Rildo was "even MORE POWERFUL than Majin Boo" -- yet BASE GT Goku was able to match him.
ie. base GT Goku ~ base Rildo > Majin Boo(Goku was likely using Pure/Kid Boo as a comparison) ~ SSJ3 Z Goku.

*Rildo then stated that Goku's power had increased "A HUNDRED fold" when he transformed to SSJ1(which is double what the SSJ multiplier was in Z.)
ie. SSJ GT Goku (100x)> base GT Goku ~ base Rildo > Majin Boo ~ SSJ3 Z Goku.


*Now, even if the SSJ2 & SSJ3 multipliers were the same in GT as they were in Z(in all likelihood, they were probably much greater given the SSJ1 multiplier), it still means SSJ2 GT Goku would have been 200x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and SSJ3 GT Goku would have been 800x> SSJ3 Z Goku.


*As for SSJ4: Super Baby Vegeta(2) was able to utterly stomp SSJ3 GT Goku... After Goku transformed into SSJ4, however, he not only stomped the bejesus out of SBV2, he was also roughly on par with Golden Oozaru Baby... Who was 10x> SBV2(that's the canon Oozaru multiplier.) This means SSJ4 was no less than 10x SSJ3(that's definitely a lowball figure, mind you, but it can be incontrovertibly substantiated.) So in a nutshell, that puts n00b SSJ4 Goku at 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, at the very least.

-It's also worth noting that Goku stated Super Baby Vegeta(1) had "the most awesome ki he'd EVER felt"... And given that Z is canon to GT, this serves as additional proof that Baby Vegeta(1)-level power(and above) was truly intended to be >>>>>>> anything in Z(Boohan and Vegito notwithstanding.) So yeah...


*Anywho, once we got to the Shadow Dragon saga we saw that there were FAR greater depths to Goku's SSJ4 than had been previously shown.
ie. SSJ4 'limits surpassed' Goku(see his fight with Syn Shenron) >>> n00b SSJ4 Goku ala the Baby saga.

-This is important where Vegeta is concerned, because based on their ability to use the Fusion Dance in the first place, we know that SSJ4 Vegeta ~ SSJ4 'limits surpassed' Goku(remember, the fusees must have roughly the same PL in order to fuse, and neither Goku or Vegeta were stated to have raised or lowered their powers prior to fusing.)


*Then consider that Omega Shenron(who stated he was "AT LEAST 10x stronger than his previous form - possibly even more") was able to effortlessly trounce SSJ4 Goku AND SSJ4 Vegeta simultaneously -- and again, they were both, as a lowball figure, no less than 8,000x more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.


*Finally, you have SSJ4 Gogeta, who utterly DESTROYED Omega Shenron in one of the most one-sided shit-stomps I've ever seen in DB.


{Note}
I'm not even counting EoGT Goku for obvious reasons. He was already AT LEAST 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, per power scaling...AND had an additional 100 years of "training with Shenron" under his belt...AND had fused with the fuggin Dragon Balls. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he had ascended to the theoretical SSJ5 Bulma mentioned(or possibly even higher.) The dude's implied power is f*cking absurd.



tl;dr
If we use power scaling alone, the 'great powers' of GT were, in all likelihood, tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than the 'great powers' of Z... And if that is indeed the case, they should absolutely be able to contend with DBS/God-level power.

If we were to compare *feats* exclusively, however, this would be a tremendously lop-sided matchup, as DBS/God-level *feats* are beyond most *feats* from GT... But tbf, large-scale feats have never really been an accurate means of gauging powers in DB. If they were, then Roshi...with a PL of 180...would be one of the most powerful beings in the mythos, cuz moon-busting. So take that for what it's worth... /shrug

[/nerdery] embarrasment


I thought it was pretty much considered EoGT was basically "god" as he fused with the dragon balls and became so powerful he didnt age, and could be anywhere he needed to be at any given time.

What happened to Goku after he fused with the Dragon balls

Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 05:35 PM
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Genii96
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
The powers/scaling in DBS are so wildly inconsistent that it's extremely hard to gauge them with any sort of accuracy(the power Goku and Vegeta display in their various forms seems to fluctuate considerably from arc to arc)... And considering that Gotenks has become little more than a fodder/joke character, I also wouldn't put much stock in a scaling system that uses him as its primary measuring stick, tbh. Toriyama is clearly no longer attempting to write him as anything but comedic relief these days. /shrug



Gotenks was never stated to have gotten weaker,everyone around him ,from Goku to 17 got high powerups, and Vegeta's destruction of the ROSAT in base casually further emboldens his comparison with ssj3 gotenks/super buu. So I'd say using DBZ gotenks as a benchmark isn't wrong IMO

Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 06:36 PM
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Galan007
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Again, it's wildly inconsistent.

In BoG, for example, Beerus fought Gotenks(in the manga he even fought SSJ3 Gotenks), yet still regarded SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta(rage-boost) as the most powerful beings he fought until Goku attained SSG.

...And given that as of DBS, the BoG arc is set a mere 6 months after the Boo saga, I doubt Goku was intended to have become hundreds of times more powerful than he was in Z in order to have surpassed Gotenks. In fact, I know he wasn't, because his base form was still WEAKER than Freeza at the time.

As mentioned, Toriyama seems to have just changed his mind regarding where Gotenks now ranks in comparison to the adults. He does shit like this all the time, unfortunately. /shrug


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Last edited by Galan007 on Dec 24th, 2018 at 08:10 PM

Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 08:05 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007


In BoG, for example, Beerus fought Gotenks(in the manga he even fought SSJ3 Gotenks), yet still regarded SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta(rage-boost) as the most powerful beings he fought until Goku attained SSG.



He fought Mystic Gohan and Mr. Buu, too.


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 09:04 PM
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Gohan was also the only one who required a solid kick to be put down.

Even rage boosted Vegeta went down to a simple tap.


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 09:21 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He fought Mystic Gohan and Mr. Buu, too.
Good points. thumb up


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 09:49 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by cdtm
Gohan was also the only one who required a solid kick to be put down.

Even rage boosted Vegeta went down to a simple tap.


Only after he powered down to his base form.


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Old Post Dec 24th, 2018 09:50 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Again, it's wildly inconsistent.

In BoG, for example, Beerus fought Gotenks(in the manga he even fought SSJ3 Gotenks), yet still regarded SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta(rage-boost) as the most powerful beings he fought until Goku attained SSG.

...And given that as of DBS, the BoG arc is set a mere 6 months after the Boo saga, I doubt Goku was intended to have become hundreds of times more powerful than he was in Z in order to have surpassed Gotenks. In fact, I know he wasn't, because his base form was still WEAKER than Freeza at the time.

As mentioned, Toriyama seems to have just changed his mind regarding where Gotenks now ranks in comparison to the adults. He does shit like this all the time, unfortunately. /shrug


Gotenks didn't go ssj3 in the anime. And Goku being weaker than frieza in base was made by beerus,same guy who apparently said ssj3 Goku and ssj2 Vegeta were the strongest he had fought (I don't remember this,but I'll take your word for it),seems the only inconsistency is beerus' own statement in BOG. And his analysis was based on reviewing a base, ground state Goku,I doubt Goku flared up his ki to 100% in base when beerus made that comment,we have seen that a ki flare up is necessary to access 100%,be it cell,frieza,Buu,etc

But even assuming BOG remained the same power levels according to Z


In ROF, base Goku matched a much stronger final form frieza,

In copy Vegeta arc, base Goku/vegeta is shown directly to be
above SSJ3 gotenks

Base Vegeta matches and exceeds a feat done by ssj3 gotenks/super buu


More than one feat places them above gotenks



And BTW, I NEVER said BOG was the one that was several times more powerful, Goku and Vegeta went through heaps of training from BOG till now.



I mean,in your scaling,your premise begins with Goku comparing rildo to Buu,which matching him in base. I don't see why several feats showing Goku/Vegeta's base superiority over gotenks can't be seen


At the very least,they are stronger than a previous SSJ3 form


Saying toriyama changed his mind on gotenks doesn't take away the fact that they ARE stronger than he is right now.and he DIDNT get weaker

Old Post Dec 27th, 2018 10:42 PM
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