All hail, the Dark Bubble!!!
DING, the match starts.
(skip to 1:23)
I IMMEDIATELY encase Jean’s brain in multiple bubbles, whilst encasing myself in a shield as well. Agreed with beatboks (and with many of you readers) - am sure Jean has many good reaction feats. Speed of thought and all that. Trained in the Danger Room etc etc. But Sue is not just some glorified soccer mom/lab assistant. Remember - she has been around and been dealing with threats for even longer than Jean.
And defense? The crux of my post, which I am sure all readers are anxiously awaiting. CAN Sue block Jean Grey?
She has blocked Jean’s TK before (and judges, please note: this is a DIRECT comparison of their attack speeds. TK/TP - it doesn’t matter. It was a mental attack from Jean, who was trying to take her out, which was blocked by Sue, who wasn’t even aware they were fighting): https://s5.postimg.org/s3lcb302f/84...oman9_super.jpg
If people say that she entered the room with her shields up….then please, judges, ask for proof. We have seen EXACTLY what it looks like when her FF is up - and it is NOT present when she enters.
My bubbles around her brain will block her powers.
Remember, I made MULTIPLE bubbles around the brain. If ONE generic bubble was able to delay Gladiator and Galactus, block Psi-Lord and was thrown up against Jean whilst sucker attacked and blocked HER TK...well, it won’t take much of a stretch (heh) to show the balance of proof is now on beatboks to show he can get through my bubbles.
Whilst his brain is simultaneously being crushed. This is a crucial point. Simultaneous offense and defense, remember.
Simple. That’s a mere wall between Wolvy and Ben, just to stop them fighting. Not a dome. Of course Emma could get over a wall. It’s nothing more than this (bonus, to show her FFs standing up to deadly blows from Namor and BB simultaneously): https://s5.postimg.org/3n36goc7b/43...93409-21864.jpg
That’s all beatboks has to show. A single ropey scan (doesn’t Wolvy have pretty good TP defenses, especially when he’s riled up???), with questionable art. And whilst I have shown Sue blocking Jean, Psi-Lord, delaying Gladiator, Galactus et al….ask him to showcase Jean getting through IW’s shields. Only fair, after all, right?
So he will need to prove his TP attacks can get through the shield I have around myself - because it is automatic. And can get through when I am specifically using multiple bubbles, each with a different frequency, designed to block him. And then prove he is faster than I. When I have already shown a scan of them in ‘combat’.
Remember, judges, that I am simultaneously attacking and defending with the same action - the bubbles. I have an FF around me at the same time as I erect multiple bubbles around Jean’s brain. Oh sure, I am 110% in agreement - telepaths have some of the best reaction feats around, and blocking lightning etc is child’s play. A dime a dozen.
But I have a scan, of the two combatants, in direct comparison. And Jean was the one who was blocked.
So judges, in summary:
Sue is faster than Jean, in direct confrontation, even when Jean attacked first. She has other showings of her combat and reflex speed too.
My bubbles can block Psi-Lord, and has held Galactus and Gladiator off for a time when they WEREN’T being attacked (here, Jean’s brain is being crushed at speed)
I can create multiple bubbles, to block different frequencies, at high speeds
I can create bubbles internally
TP is nothing more than energy frequencies, which I have been shown to be able to counter
Even IF beatboks can get through all of that, the side personality of Malice would still buy me a split second to crush him internally. Doom, who knows the FF as well as anyone, was taken by surprise. I reckon, judges, that beats’ writeup says nothing about finding a 2nd personality lying in wait.
Your entire strategy is based on some delusion that Sue is faster than Jean. Are you seriously expecting people to buy that argument??
Let's look at you evidence.
Reacts to IF. A street level character. Daredevil can react to and dodge IF a normal human. Jean on the other hand has reacted to apocalypse. On the Marvel Data base Apoc is a speed level of 5 to IF's 2.
Your scan of putting up a bubble around avengers doesn't even show is Sue. Not to mention it shows no reaction. It asks if any hero could withstand the blast for a millisecond nothing to do with Speed.
Seriously your going to use SLOWDINSON and 2nd rate rip offs as an measure of speed?? Also force fields against lightning?? It travels as 750 miles per hour (JUST over mack 1) and the scans dont even show if it was a reaction or if the shields were already up.
Now I could search up and post multiple scans of the feats of Jean ACTUALLY reacting to things faster than what you've shown for Sue.
for that matter the fact that it was MULTIPLE bullets beats your lightning scan
But really what's the point. I've already posted a scan of jean casually reacting to a blood lusted Sue.
Unless you have something that contradicts an actual canon encounter between them then you argument just fell apart.
The only other part of your post thatis in any way relevant is the fallacious claim that Sue has blocked Jean's TP before. Anyone who knows the issue at all is well aware that the resurrected body of Jean Sue faced in the pheonix rising story was weakened and in fact did not possess TP ( a fact she wasn't aware of at the time)
1. Sue isn't faster
2. Jean has already defended from Sue's force field attacks showing they wont work for her
3. Sue hasn't faced Jean with TP so the scan is irrelevant as it doesn't prove a thing as nthere was never TP to shield against.
Your attacks and your defenses fail dismally and you have failed to address mine at all
Last edited by beatboks on Dec 18th, 2017 at 01:55 AM
Let's go through all the 'points' that beatboks made. I will then make further points if needed, but really, this post will be nothing more than a reply to each of his points, with a further emphasis on my own previous points. Let's get to it.
Thanks. Makes my job much easier.
Well, that's my victory then. Whilst he's trying to detect me by going into TP detection mode....I've opened bubbles up in his brain.
Using a mind-controlled Sue as proof? OK. Main thing to take away from these scans, dear judges is this: Beatboks has added more proof to my scans. I can block him, as seen in the scans he posted. Also shows just how important it is to get the first shot off. He can block a blast from me (which, btw, judges, I am NOT doing) and I can block his blasts.
None of that matters. We, the readers, all know that Jean is mighty, and has 1001 ways of ending these kinds of matches. All poor Sue can do is open bubbles and go invisible - and in this match, I'm not even doing 50% of that.
It says no hero, even as mighty as the Avengers, could survive for more than a fraction of a millisecond. They survived. So they were NOT in the vacuum of space for more than a fraction of a millisecond. So....SOMETHING, or SOMEONE, managed to erect a bubble around them so they didn't even have to spend more than a fraction of a milisecond in space. That someone, or something, was the IW.
There, clear enough for you?
Lightning is...750mph? News to me. Are you sure you know the difference between lightning and thunder? (please log in to view the image)
The visible part of lightning is....220 million mph. THUNDER is 750, i.e. the speed of sound, Mach 1 (surprising, that!) Lol. Judges, you can safely throw out any of beatboks' speed arguments now. But let's see what happens when one thinks the speed of lightning is 750mph...
Firstly, your scans are broken. Secondly, I hope that your scans show things faster than lightning, and faster than fractions of a millisecond because otherwise, they're just useless.
Thirdly...what does Thor dodging bullets have to do with Mjolnir or lightning? Furthermore, I've posted scans of Sue blocking and containing multiple lasers....which aren't bullet speed. Guess who's bullet speed though? Iron Fist
Jeez. How fast are bullets in your part of the world? Faster than 220 million mph?
A mind-controlled Sue, which makes it inadmissible as proof? OK. You DID post a scan of Sue blocking Jean, though, so there's that. Note, judges, his scans DON'T show bubbles being opened inside the head, but 'energy blast vs energy blast' type attacks - which I am NOT doing here. That is not the way of the Dark Bubble.
I.....NEVER.....said she blocked Jean's TP, lol. Are you even reading my post? You must have me confused with another poster, or another BZ. Judges, this is my argument: Jean attacked with a TK attack, which, much like a TP attack, is as fast as thought. And Sue blocked it, even though Sue wasn't even there to fight and Jean was itching for a fight.
Not based on the scans you've shown. I've shown her reacting in fractions of a millisecond. Blocking lightning, from Ragnarok, and Electro (I guess you conveniently missed that). Judges, here is the Electro scan: https://s5.postimg.org/bsl8exfwn/fa...siblewoman9.jpg
100% agreed. Your scans show that my bubbles block Jean's TK, thanks - I was searching everywhere for those scans. Pity I'm not blasting you though.
It shows in a speed of thought, Sue wins.
Let's revisit each other's OPs, shall we?
Multiple bubbles, simultaneously in his brain, and around myself.
THEN an attempt to create a shield.
THEN an attempt to shut powers off.
THEN a blood clot/rocks etc.
Once again, judges, this is a quick draw match. Or at least, I thought it was. Turns out, it's not much of a quick match when your opponent is still busy trying to detect you. Even IF it doesn't take much time to detect me (I AM, after all, standing there lol), by then it would be too late. Match starts, I am straining at the bit to launch my incredibly quick simultaneous attacks and defence. Match starts, Beatboks is set on searching for me, then doing a shield, then etc etc.
Every single point of my strategy was aimed at pruning as much time off my reactions (which are already incredibly fast) to get the drop on Beatboks.
Beatboks? He's taking the slow and patient strategy. Which ends in brain death.
Judges, this will be my final post. It has been, as beatboks said earlier, short and sweet.
As Sue slaughters Jean.
Coming into this match, I admit, I was a bit hesitant and unsure of myself. Jean IS powerful. She does have a wide variety of powers - 100% agree. I was definitely the underdog in this match.
But none of that matters, in a quickdraw contest. This match was beatboks’ to lose - and he did.
At first glance, it would appear I am the weakest in the entire tourney. But judges, remember this: unlike any other contestant, I alone am able to simultaneously attack and defend. Why is this important? It means that the very FIRST action taken in the match - and what your opponent’s first action is - is of vital importance.
Whilst I concentrated my OP on my reflex and combat speed, he erroneously assumed I would go invisible - and spent precious (milli?) seconds looking for me. As soon as the match starts, I went for the insta-kill, whilst defending myself at the same time with a bubble around myself:
Multiple instances, of multiple bubbles. The last scan even shows a defensive shield AS she opens bubbles up.
The beauty of the simultaneous attack and defend, is that my bubbles would block his TK (which was his….second action, I believe?) and POSSIBLY his TP (his third action. Whilst killing and blocking him with my first.
Why only possibly? Whilst blocking his TK is in ZERO doubt (thanks to his own scans and my scans), TP is iffy. However, I have shown Sue blocking TP from a multitude of sources - judges, has he shown ANY scans of TP getting through?.
With regards to that first scan - yes, Jean had just awoken from a coma. But her TK was still pretty damn powerful - that’s Herc she’s holding up to the ceiling there! Again,my point is that when Jean tried to attack Sue, without Sue knowing, she was blocked.
Whilst those last two scans have the targets ultimately breaking through, they ARE Galactus(or at least, his M-body) and Gladiator. And my point is that the bubbles held for a second or two, which is all I need. So as I do not want to be accused of misleading (as beatboks has mistakenly claimed), at least I have shown something which proves she could possibly block TP. He has shown….nothing.
So all in all, I think I have provided a plethora of proof that IW can block TP. And can do so at speed. His TK is negated. I have shields around me. His shields never get the chance to be raised, and even if they did, Doom, who has better shields than Jean, fell to Sue: https://s5.postimg.org/q2usqbw87/RCO022.jpg
Remember, judges - when judging a match, you must go by what has been presented in debates, NOT what your pre-conceived notions are. This is a very even tourney - we ARE all in the same tier, after all.
On paper, yes, Jean could win.
In this match, Sue shitstomps.
Sue is faster than Jean
My first action is an insta-kill/defend
His first action is scanning
Sue can definitely block TK
Sue can possibly block TP, with zero proof Jean can get through
Match ends, with this result: (please log in to view the image)
DS is placing too much emphasis on the idea of my taking time to TP find SUe.
1. This was based on an assumption that he would go invisible which he didn't As such no time was waited TP searching (even if Jean was only capable of doing 1 thing at a time which is not a limitation)
2. My plan was always to simultaneously TP search for Sue while TK shielding myself.
Basically since Sue didn't go invisible even if to search for her required my complete undivided attention it's something I didn't have to do.
Even if we assume for some reason I still spent time TP searching for an opponent that wasn't hidden (I must be stupid) why would it matter?? It's not like Jean can't use TP and TK at the same time.
but yeah she's just going to leave herself defenseless while she searches for someone who didn't hide.
Darksaint would have us be impressed because Sue can put up shields that can hold stop Thor's hammer and restrain HUlk. Please judges let's compare this to a young Jean who can literally ragdoll Thor Scarlet witch and others simultaneously
Sue is far from the only one who can throw up a shield in the midst of battle when a bomb goes off or bullets are about to hit her. Nothing DS has shown for Sue doesn't have a equal or superior feat form Jean in reaction.
Using attacks already proven to have failed
not to mention the idea of a "bubble force field" has already dismally failed against Jean
DS would have us believe that Sue's shields protect her from Jean's TP because of an out of context scan showing Sue not TP sensed by a version of Jean that unknown to her didn't possess TP at the time. Does anyone really buy that?? If Sue can block TP why can I find this scan in a google search
Then there is the fact that DS would have us believe that Sue was mind controlled in the scan where a version fo Sue genetically altered to be he Son's hound was mind controlled. Was there any evidence of mind control?? Judges I ask if DS truly believes that Sue's force fields can defend her from TP than he can't possibly have us also believe that she can be mind controlled. The fact is he knows that to be a lie and still presents it in all it's dishonesty.
I've over committed with this tourney and other commitments at the moment so am bowing out. I hate to leave things mid stream so wanted to present at least a counter to DS (he deserves as much). I doubt this paltry offering should take anything from him and offer him my best wishes in the coming rounds. @phil if DS wants let him take Jean into the next rounds. he can likely rep her much better than I can or have.
Thanks to both players for participating in such a colorful and scan filled battlezone. Going over this debate I felt that this was one of those times where versatility was a tricky element to value, Beatboks definitively proved he had a ton of options but barring the ability to TP/TK at once, most of it seems valid under other circumstances than the ones provided here.
DS fully engaged in his suicidal strategy that included, somehow, Iron Man. He also provided the highlight of the match, arguing that Psilord being unable to use Tp on Susan with a scan explicitly stating that he Psilord was reading his mind. He's an entertainer like that.
Anyways, in the barrage of rather unrelated scans, I still think both debaters strung some nice arguments and made for a plausible win for their carácter. I'm giving the edge to DS (somehow...) because his opening strategy was focused and he did play the strenghts of his character to the bitter end. BB I feel struggled more against his own character than DS's but was still good overall, wish the hiccups with scans didn't happen.
Darksaint vs Beatboks
Here we go! Two of my favourite debaters throwing down! And they’re using no less than two of the characters with the decidedly best porn. DS’s opening video really sets the mood for the whole fight.
Both of you succeeded and failed in respective areas. Simply put my vote goes to DarkSaint, despite Jean being best girl of all time.
Beatboks convinced me of a lot of things, that Jean is more powerful, than she could definitely pierce Sue’s telepathic defenses and dominate her in a number of ways. He did, however, not successfully convince me that she could prevent Sue from bubbling her. What I wanted was a discussion on whether or not Sue could just pop someone who is an established telekinetic, whether Jean could interrupt the eruption of a field in her own brain. He could stop a telekinetic blast from Sue, but could he stop the bubble? I do not believe he made a convincing enough case that he could.
Darksaint put all his eggs in one basket and it paid off. He goes for the kill and given Beatboks slighty more reserved opening that is just enough to win him the match. We’re talking half a second or less, but it should be enough. He did a very good job establishing Sue’s speed and unfortunately Beatboks’s scans did not hold up in that arena. DS wouldn’t win a TK battle and he wouldn’t be able to resist telepathic attacks but he is at least Beatboks’ equal in speed and his strategy bought him a precious split second.
An expected outcome, with me drawing one of the only two characters in play I knew very very little of. Still the randomizing was fun. Instead of researching my opponent I had to research my own character more.