Point is Snoke was vastly more powerful than both Kylo and Rey who were force equals. You tried acting as if Ren was more powerful in the force than Rey as some kind of weirdo reasoning on top of the guards being the main reason when it was always about Snoke. He chose what opportunity it was best for him and this had nothing to do with the guards.
Now with regards to Snoke vs. Windu it's entirely speculative since both characters don't interact with any common opponents at this point in Star Wars canon but I'm comfortable with my position. He ragdolled someone Luke was scared of with raw force strength.
He was not he wanted him dead and falsely assumed his power would rise alongside Kylo's. He just didn't want the Jedi to spread. Luke can't defeat the first order. Luke even jokes about idiots believing he could. Hope the idea needs to spread to save the resistance. It's the ****ing theme of the film you baboon.
Director breaks down the scene for exactly the reasons I told you. Snoke was distracted that's why he chose to act because power wise we already saw what happened earlier you hillbilly.
The director said Snoke needed to be distracted which has nothing to do with the guards. He already made a move on Snoke and Snoke put him down. The guards did nothing. So when Snoke is ready he not the guards is going to own Ren. The director didn't account for the guards at all that's your biased conclusions which was not a factor according to the director.
The scene shows he is since Snoke is vastly more powerful than Rey who is Ren's equal in the force. For ****s sake does the director need to hold your hand and explain the obvious.
The circumstances were different which is worse for Sidious since Vader was able to do without a weapon. Vader's move also gave Sidious time to defend himself.
Snoke kept Ren in check himself. He sent the force lightning. Ren needed to act when he's distracted because he has no chance against Snoke straight up. Rey did nothing to aid Ren against Snoke. What was key was the distraction. The director makes this clear and doesn't cite the guards at all.
You didn't respond to anything I said. You just repeated your baseless conjecture. Based off your silly logic Sidious is afraid of Yoda since he didn't persoqnlly go hunt him down after Yoda attempted to kill him.
I am correct in assessing the scene from my favorite Star Wars film. You were wrong and can't properly understand any of it because you're hopelessly biased.
Snoke is ridiculously powerful as I claimed. Luke ended up not being this badass which you claimed proper to the film. Eat crow.
You don't even know the context of what Rian said or what the context of his response was.
You need me to tell you because aside from CONTEXT you just dont even get how CANON works. Rian does:
Frosty: "When he walks into that room, does he know what he's gonna do or is he making that decision in the moment?"
^ First the question is clearly about Kylo's intentions. And nothing to do with Force power. So absolutely no reason to exclude the Guards from the equation, given they were such a huge part of Snoke's defences.
Now for the interesting part which is Rian's response (right before your(Quan's) quote) which I am loving:
Rian: "Well my take on it, this is also the sort of thing I don't know if I, I mean I Know What I Think, I don't Know if it's My Place to Say at this point though. I feel like the movies and the scenes like that..."
Frosty: "I only ask cause you're the writer and director"
Rian: "I know but you guys know what I mean. I CAN GIVE MY TAKE on it, but it doesn't, I guess NOW that the movie is out there and BELONGS TO YOU GUYS, My Take is TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT."
Goes on to Quan's quote..
Anyway, Rian's understanding of canon (even canon he's created) pleases me. Because he gets he's not Lucas. And that it doesn't matter what he says, or even what his intention was while writing it, because the Overall Canon is greater than him.
This is especially so now when there are so many different writers and directors.
It's exactly the same with Filoni's comments on Rebels or TCW. HIS opinions/views, even on his own work are just that. Take it with A GRAIN OF SALT, just like Rian said.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Feb 6th, 2018 at 07:46 PM
False, as I also watched the interview from collider but you aren't able to grasp it due to your own innate personal bias.
Here is why your reasoning falls completely on its ass. Kylo was looking for the right opportunity to strike which had nothing to do with the whereabouts of the guards or that he needed an ally to fend off the guards after he attacked Snoke. As I said it was done due to Snoke being distracted and the location of the lightsaber.
Force power is another matter altogether. We know Ren wasn't even powerful enough to extract the information from Rey's mind prior to her even being trained. Snoke acccomplished this easily. That's a huge difference in terms of force power between Snoke and Ren in relation to Rey.
Yes, he's the director just as Lucas was the director of Revenge of the Sith. The hypocrisy here is you accept one directors opinion of a scene in sow thing he directed and act like this is different altogether. It isn't the director runs the show and its according to his perspective don't mistake politeness and him not trying to alienate a fans own perspective which is a wise business decision. Especially when this film has bad press of being decisive do you honestly this nice guy is going to suddenly become someone he isn't. Don't be foolish. And don't accept one directors words from their film and ignore another's just because you are biased.
I watched the interview and he's a nice guy giving his nice guy response but that doesn't detract from him directing the scene and explaining what he interned for the scene.
He isn't speaking for anyone else or their thoughts on the scene but he still crafted the scene. That doesn't suddenly go away and he explains what I stated prior to this interview. I understood the scene you didn't. Your feelings and bias usually prevent you from understanding most of the Star Wars films. If it goes against your own personal preconceived opinion you reject anything with your own silly justifications but you're too blind to see it.
One director for this film. His opinion clearly matters for his own film just as Lucas' opinion still matters for rots. Lucas doesn't oversee all Star Wars anymore but any director of Star Wars opinion matters with regards to their own work.
You are free to continue to live in your own reality and reject whatever you want but his perspective was uttered by me prior to because unlike you I'm objective and understood the scene for what it was.
Registered: Jan 2018
Location: In between parallel universes
Right, my point was that using Serkis' quotes to explain what happened in the movie when nothing in the movie really went out of its way to suggest that is okay.
I don't know about that. Luke managed to get a strike on Vader while he was lightsaber fighting. But Vader was completely making an idiot out of Luke when he was throwing objects at him with the Force. So I think he might have been able to ragdoll Luke if that's what he's wanted to do. Not with ease, but maybe he could have. And I could argue about how Luke is more powerful than Rey, but that's not important (and probably not true) because the new movies seem to pretty much ignore all that came before them. They don't care too much about consistency.
You're consistent in ways Disney is not consistent in.
The old lore would have suggested that the New Republic were the big ones, the old lore would have suggested that Luke wouldn't have pulled a weapon on a sleeping child, the old lore would have suggested that you can't hit another object in hyperspace, the old lore would have suggested that you can't come back as a force ghost using the dark side, and the old lore would have suggested that the dark and light sides of the Force can't be used together. Yet here we are with Disney.
They don't care about what happened in the Original Trilogy, as far as the lore goes. They only care about introducing cool story elements. So going off of "this happened in the original trilogy, and by comparison in the sequel trilogy, this conclusion can be derived", doesn't really work. At least that's what I think.
But then why include this as a part of the story? Him being in pain is something which makes him more vulnerable. Now he hides it, and tolerates that pain, but it's bound to mean bad things for him at some point. Originally, I think they were going to make that his weakness, his physical deficiencies, but then Rian Johnson came along.
I wouldn't consider that "in action". I mean he's not the kind of guy who can, I think, traverse rocky places or walk properly through hard terrain, which most healthy people easily would. A walk in the park isn't a walk in the park for him. He can't duel with a lightsaber. He can't go wherever he wants and do whatever he wants. His physicality provides that limit, no matter how powerful he is with the force.
Yes, Snoke is more powerful than Sidious and Vader, but what does that prove? why do you keep bringing it up? Lore consistency, doesn't seem to be all that important to Disney and so what if he's more powerful than Sidious or Vader? He's not as injured as either of them. Vader has that suit to keep him moving. Snoke only has a very frail body.
Palpatine didn't need guards. Any threat the guards could take care of, he could take care of. And he certainly didn't need that giant array of stormtroopers when he arrived at the second death star. But he had it. For formality.
Snoke on the other hand, uses guards to protect him. He stays hidden, away from almost all people, on a moving base. And the two that actually do get to see him see a hologram which is 30 feet tall. He is paranoid. He is worried for his safety, because he can't take care of himself all that well.
He called his guards back because Rey wasn't all that big of a threat. He knew he could ragdoll her. Yoda is comparitively more powerful. Palp's guards weren't expecting it, weren't as powerful as Snoke's guards, and got defeated easily but Palpatine doesn't care, because he can take care of Yoda himself, or just escape.
Snoke on the other hand can do niether of those things when an actual threat walks into the room (which is likely to never happen, as he's made sure). This all shows that Snoke is worried for his life. He is capable of being assassinated more easily than most people are. Force user or not.
They are SO violating the old rules.
Aside fom that, Snoke is vulnerable. If he was like Palpatine in Lords of the Sith, he could have gone on ground himself and taken care of Luke, but his physiology prevents that. That's why he's not as capable. He's more powerful in the the Force than Luke, but wouldn't win in a one-to-one fight.
Registered: Jan 2018
Location: In between parallel universes
Windu does't have force strength comparable to Rey or Kylo? What? Windu is one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live, and Rey and Kylo aren't even at their full potential. They're young, they're learning, and they don't have access to all the information in the galaxy at their disposal. Mace is much more powerful, comparitively.
It had nothing to do with the guards? Kylo, had he tried to take on Snoke without Rey would have died in front of the Praeoritan guards, which is why he wouldn't have attempted it. But he could have killed Snoke either way.
Let's actually analyze that quote:
"In my mind, he walks in there knowing basically that he is going to betray Snoke but he doesn’t know yet exactly what the mechanism is and what his opportunity is going to be. But he’s gone in there with the intent of, whether it’s now or whether it’s later or whenever it is, when he brings Rey in there, he’s had that connection with her and what he says in the elevator… from that, in my head I thought, ‘Okay, he knows he’s going to do this but he doesn’t know how yet’ and when he sees that opportunity with that lightsaber next to him and sees Snoke distracted and realizes he can give this an attempt, he goes for it."
What it tells us:
1. Kylo knew he was going to betray Snoke before he walked in the room. This should be clear from earlier points from the movies and books, to any one who was paying close attention, but whatever.
2. Kylo doesn't know how he will kill Snoke. Getting up and trying to take him on didn't work very well last time, and then there are the praeoritan guards to worry about. He doesn't know if he'll get an opportunity or not.
3. He has had a connection with Rey, and knows it may help him defeat Snoke.
4. When he sees that Snoke is distracted and that there is an open shot he has on him, he goes for the kill. Implies that he could have done it if he wasn't open or distracted, Kylo couldn't have killed him.
5. Kylo gives this "An attempt" because he knows that it could have failed, and that the guards might have killed him afterwards.
What it leaves out:
1. Snoke's ability to defend himself on a one-to-one fight
2. Snoke's ability to fend off force users as powerful as Luke.
3. Snoke's ability to survive without the guards.
4. Snoke's ability to survive if many people knew about and had access to his location, thereby allowing them to raid his room.
Basically, all we really get is that Snoke is much more powerful than Kylo. And we already knew that. How much more powerful than Luke is he? How much more powerful than Palpatine? Can he stand his own ground in a duel with someone comparably powerful or even slightly weaker? None of these questions are answered, which is what leads to me believe this about Snoke's power:
"Snoke is the most powerful force user we've seen in the canon timeline, but he isn't capable of ragdolling the likes of TLJ Luke, RotS Palpatine, Yoda, or even Mace Windu.
This paired with his hindered physicality renders him incapable of defending himself against comparably powerful force users or even creatures like Lyleks, or going places or defending himself in places where he isn't in control of the environment."
Regardless of the theme of the film, Snoke is unquestionably paranoid. He's not the kind of guy that's okay with even the smallest threat. He thinks of it as a danger to all that stands in his favor and focuses all of his energies on destroying that threat. He's afraid of Jedi ideals. Afraid of them. Not like, oh, I don't like them, and want them to go away, like, Oh, those jedi ideals could be the end of all I have created! That's why he's afraid of Rey, and why he was afraid of Luke.
Snoke is implied to be powerful, perhaps Mother Talzin level.
__________________ "I judged the Poles by their enemies. And I found it was an almost unfailing truth that their enemies were the enemies of magnanimity and manhood. If a man loved slavery, if he loved usury, if he loved terrorism and all the trampled mire of materialistic politics, I have always found that he added to these affections the passion of a hatred of Poland. She could be judged in the light of that hatred; and the judgment has proved to be right."
We see him react with no threat of injury whatsoever. He toys with Rey despite her athleticism, raw force strength, skills, etc. Why would he use a lightsaber when his powers are so much greater than hers he can beat her in a sitting position ?
Yes, Vader was showing off his dominance of Luke in ESB but it wasn't to the degree of Snoke over Rey. We had Vader even say how impressive Luke was in the first part of their duel. Snoke did so with ease and that's what impressive. The degree of ease in which this was achieved speaks volumes about his power levels.
What do you mean they don't care about consistency ? I think you're arguing over new canon ****ing with your preconceived notions of Star Wars canon.
This is completely iyo. Disney decides what counts from here on out. They own the characters so they dictate how their movies go. You have to let go of your perceptions and just accept whatever they decide. Let the past die.
You are making a claim you can't back. Find me a quote from anyone at Disney saying they don't care about old canon otherwise it's just your perception which is the problem.
Yoda needs a cane to walk but what does that have to do with him leeching off the force when in combat. You just speculate which doesn't offer any evidence. We see proof of him being able to react in time to deal with Ren and Rey. So even in your own speculation we see a director go his own way further showing you the futility in arguing based off speculation alone.
You can't say he can't duel with a lightsaber only that we haven't seen him do so. You also can't say he can't handle hard terrain only that we have yet to see him attempt to traverse hard terrain. He can sit on a rock and disarm Rey he doesn't need to move although we see him move against Ren and Rey. Ironically he moves towards them not away you dishonest debater.
Vader needs a suit to rely on surviving Snoke just needs shoes to help deal with the pain. So what ? Snoke is more powerful so he defeats either based on his force superiority.
Inaccurate statement. No one is saying the guards are greater than either only that they increase his protection. There's a reason Sidious was only attacked when his guards were lower in number because Yoda knew outside the circumstances of rots this was the only chance he had so he had to make it count. You also speak for them as in for formality without any sources to confirm your stance.
Sidious allowed two guards to attack Yoda. He didn't call them off. Sidious wasn't holding parades and being out vulnerable in open spaces either. Both worried over their safety as any powerful dictator would. This is proof of nothing other than being precautious and intelligent.
So he has guards he just had weaker guards and less. Dumb. So you admit Snoke didn't need the guards to deal with Rey. Perfect.
Sidious tried to escape once Yoda hurt him. Cowardice since his arrogance eroded with one force push.
Based off what ? Why would Snoke make himself an easier target. Sidious never did so why would Snoke ? Snoke showed himself casually dismissing Rey's efforts whereas Sidious used Vader to protect him. Snoke didn't need Ren to thwart her.
No, only in your mind but again you don't make the rules. Disney does. Accept reality.
Luke didn't look so hot against Rey and he used the force in their brief skirmish.
Quote function isn't working so I'm going to spitball this.
1. We see him able to defend himself against lull when he openly went after him. He was easily put down without guards aid.
2. It is conjecture but we can scale off of Snoke and his interactions with Ren and Rey compared with Luke's.
3. He casually defeated Rey without guards. He caused Ren to abandon his challenge directly so I'd say he's amazing since he doesn't even need to draw a lightsaber to shut either of them down.
4. That has no application on a versus thread. Why would a powerful leader make themselves easily able to be attacked ? This doesn't make any sense and you're arguing like a fanboy imagining hypotheticals.
All your own speculation unsupported by evidence. You're free to have your own opinion as am I. Snoke stands alone at the top of the force mountain.
Snoke is not going to allow thr Jedi to spread. He doesn't want a new Jedi order to rise. That's intelligent and merciless. Rey wasn't a threat to him directly but he wasn't going to let her live and teach someone else either. Hope spreads very quickly especially when facing an oppressive regime. The first order isn't a bunch of nice guys spreading cheer and joy.
Last edited by quanchi112 on Feb 20th, 2018 at 12:08 AM