Their philosophies doesn't change the manner in which the force works. Yoda's physical deficiencies require a cane for walking but that doesn't mean he needs a cane when he uses the force. Why wouldn't the same apply to Snoke ?
It depends on the extent of their injuries. If they lose limbs certainly but Sidious was just scarred and he didn't need cybernetic enhancements. So when we get specific my logic is sound whereas yours isn't. It's the same nonsense when you argued Kylo was more powerful than Snoke based off him dropping his guard.
Yes, they have beaten more powerful force users but they were in the same tiers of power. I don't believe Kenobi would have a chance against Sidious do you ? Same goes for Kenobi against Yoda.
I am saying it's unclear but based off previous history there's not one sound logical reason as to why he wouldn't be able to wield a lightsaber. If he doesn't need to wield one to put down an opponent why would he waste his energy ?
Registered: Jan 2018
Location: In between parallel universes
He wouldn't. That wasn't the point. The point was, the movie showed what it showed. This doesn't mean it showed EVERYTHING. Serkis, on the other hand, who knows the intent of the scene, commented that something was going on in the scene which the movie didn't imply. I've said this before, but you keep saying, without further elaboration or argument, "we didn't see anything happen". Yes, we didn't. That's what I'm talking about. If you respond to this comment with another "But we didn't see it in the movie", and not talk about why that makes a difference, or why what I'm saying is invalid, I'm just gonna respond with "QUANCHI"
Not really. At least, I don't percieve it to be so. Snoke toying with Rey was probably not much more different from the Emperor using force lightning on Luke, or Vader dominating him in ESB. Especially the former. Snoke is, force-power wise, more powerful than any other character. But that's not what my argument has been about. I've been talking about how Snoke's physicality limits him, no matter how powerful he is in the force.
I mean they don't care about consistency from the old trilogies. I don't even know what you're trying to say in your next sentence. The new canon is built around making a good story, even if that means breaking rules which were established before. You can literally look up any negative review of the Last Jedi, and you'll find that people are arguing that the events don't make sense, because they defy what was established before. I don't think that affects the quality of the film, but they're right.
Disney makes the decisions, and the rules, and changes the rules whenever they want, but that's exactly my point. They're changing the rules. And so if you say that something which happened before Disney was making the rules supports an argument about something which happened after, you're not making sense. yoda using force augentation no longer is of any significance, because it's completely possible that when creating the character of Snoke, the creators decided, "Hey, we can create a character that's super powerful, but he's physically disabled, and so that makes him vulnerable so he needs to go overboard with protecting himself all the time and can't go around doing things like the Emperor or Yoda could".
Okay, how about this one: "We've seen Jedi come back as blue ghosts Maybe sith can come back and there's some all powerful sith that's controlling what the dark side is. We did talk about a lot about how the final battle frontier for the jedi might be in the spirit realm, so you have a bad guy ghost."
Your insistence on using "evidence" in an inconsistent fictional world is what I have a problem with. The lore, as it's built, implies that Snoke is weakened by his physicality. You argument against that is that physicality never hindered a force user before. My repsonse to that is "well what happened before doesn't matter" and you respond with "well it didn't happen before". If you reply this way again, I'll respond with "QUANCHI".
Oh, and as for Snoke reacting quickly to Ren and Rey's attacks: He was in his room, steps away from a comfy chair, in his shoes and robe which keep him comfortable. He keeps himself in that environment because he can't exist outside of it. I'll prove this in my response to your statement about the guards.
He can't sit on a rock, nor can he get to that rock to sit on. His physicality prevents him from going or surviving anywhere besides where he stays. And my comment about Vader was pointing out that the reason Vader was more capable than Snoke was because WITH HIS SUIT, he could go where he wanted and do what he wanted, whereas Snoke is limited in that way. His force ability does not effect the reason he's weak. His physicality is. So you arguing for his superiority in the force will not prove anything to me, as you seem to think it should.
That's your speculation. Regardless, Sidious didn't care to get into fights. He could and he couldn't. He knew he was powerful enough to survive any fight, but he was better off taking the easy route, not fighting. Snoke on the other hand, could not defend himself properly without the guards or in his safe place. He also kept most people from being where he was because he was in danger of being killed. Palpatine was never in danger of being killed. The only person that could kill him (vader) was his pet. Not so with Snoke. More people could kill him, and he had to protect himself because of that.
The guards reacted before Sidious even knew what was going on. He didn't have time to call them off, and while they were trained to attack, Sidious didn't react to them getting defeated, because he knew they made no difference.
Sidious' decision isn't dumb, it's efficient. He doesn't use what he doesn't need. Snoke didn't need the guards against a single captor brought in with someone whom he had complete trust in. A militia of 8 people may have led to a different reaction. And he may not have been able to defend himself against Ren as well as he did with Rey. And not having the Preaoritan guards may have allowed Ren to kill him much sooner.
Sidious didn't need Vader to protect him. He had the force. And we see him overpower Luke with Force lightning the way Rey was overpowered with Telekenesis.
And based on the statements which I already included in my comments several pages ago saying that Snoke's physicality is a vulnerability.
This is literally fiction.
*An actual quote from the creators.*
Luke wasn't going to use actual violence against Rey. We see him being much, much more powerful than Rey at the end of the film when he did something which would "Kill [Rey]"
We debate based off the facts which you seem to ignore to com duo wth just pure conjecture. We see him move and react just fine with his force powers. We didn't see him at any disadvantage due to his physical body so once again the scene speaks for itself. Both can be true which I have debated from the onset. Snoke can have physical deficiencies just like Yoda, Vader but still be a force wth the force. That's my point my dim witted enemy.
Who cares ? These guys are big deals because of their force power. It's like saying the Hulk isn't powerful as Banner. No shit but with force powers Snoke is a big deal.
Thats your opinion and not mine. This is perspective based I don't care what butthurt losers say. Live in your own deluded reality and pretend the films don't exist but they do. Disney decides what's can for their films not the butthurt fans.
They do make sense they just are outside what the fans wanted. They can't deal with it. I personally love that it hurts them.
What rules have they changed ? Yoda was physically disabled and was quite powerful with the force not without it. Nothing has changed. Snoke, Yoda, and Vader have deficiencies they overcome with the force. Vader is worse since he needs a suit to survive. The poor guy suffers a lot. Same logic applies to them all.
It doesn't hinder them as much when they tap into the force. Hell, just the physical limitations of the body in younger athletic types like Kenobi are amplified when they tap into the force. Look at how far they jump with the force. Their leg muscles aren't more powerful to the force you moron. The force is what makes this shit possible so without they are screwed. Tapping into it is what makes them superhuman, kiddo.
Prove it. Nowhere in the film s this even alluded to you retard. He pulls Rey in right up near him inches away and she can't do shit. We see she doesn't have a chance wherever she is at. Snoke is too powerful for her. Distance isn't the problem it's the disparity between the two in force power. You're dishonest.
Why wouldn't he try to be comfortable ? This argument is pure trash. Based off your logic Vader isn't shit because he needs a suit to survive. Without the suit he dies so **** your comfortability point. Snoke like anyone would try to be more comfortable because who doesn't. Everyone does you masochistic fifty shades loving twit.
Vader can't do survive just existing without his suit. Who cares about sitting on rocks. You can't prove Snoke can't sit on a rock anyways. His body does hurt so logically he wouldn't cause himself discomfort. I don't sit on rocks either but that doesn't mean I can't you retard.
Vader needs a suit. So without that suit he can't survive so that's far worse than your baseless sit on rocks claims. Vader can't even survive with the force without the suit. Whoops. Poor Vader loses based off your logic.
Snoke doesn't care to challenge people either unless it's necessary. The same applies to both. Snoke did defend himself with the guards in the room. They weren't even used in both instances. Sidious let his guards attack Yoda you twit. Guards are there to protect them both but ironically Snoke didn't use his to attack Kylo or Rey. He forced his will upon them via his own powers.
Sidious used Vader to defend himself against Luke. So please stop with the nonsense. Force blasting Luke wh tossed his saber down isn't impressive especially since he did not ko or even scar him despite over thirty seconds of prolonged attacks.
Baseless claims. Vader killed him without a quick attack or a saber. Pitiful. He had ample time to defend himself against a one armed cyborg. He failed.
So both have guards. Their job is to protect their leader. Shocker. Snoke didn't allow them to attack he owned them both on his own. You don't have one instance in which Snoke needed a guard to gain one advantage. Sidious like a coward tried to flee as soon as Yoda fought back. Stand and fight you pussy.
So you admit Snoke's decision was smart with the guards as they are there to protect. Both had them. Sidious dismissed them because he didn't feel he needed them. He was wrong. He gave up an advantage.
The guards made no difference against Snoke. Snoke was too powerful for either force user and it wasn't about the guards it was about Snoke dropping his guard. Just stop with the guards. Snoke already proved his dominance versus both force users.
We see Vader save his life. So maybe he could defend himself but he chose to not do so Vader was needed. Luke didn't have a weapon or know how to use tutaminis. So of course he was hurt by it but not scarred or ko'd despite 30 seconds of exposure.
Snoke played with her like putty and disarmed her at will. Sidious never faced an armed Luke outside of Vader saving his life.
Just as is Yoda's physicality is a vulnerability. Force negates this.
He did defend himself. Snoke didn't hurt her either with violence but his force powers were too much for her to deal with. Not the case with Luke who used the force and ended up losing his balance.
Speculation. Luke died. Rey looked far better against Luke than Snoke. Facts, kid.
1. He's weaker than Luke, at least as of the last the galaxy had seen him. The Visual Dictionary states that Snoke thinks only a Skywalker can kill Luke, e.g. he personally isn't up to the task.
2. He's vastly more powerful (in actualized ability) than Rey and probably by extension Kylo, though we don't have a clear picture of how strong these two are either except that they're almost certainly weaker than Vader. We can extrapolate from Kylo's potential + years of training that he's probably pretty powerful, but by how much, it's difficult to say.
3. His Force bridge and telepathy seem to be pretty impressive. They're almost certainly above the likes of, say, TPM Maul or AotC Obi Wan. Not sure how far above it puts him though.
4. Andy Serkis claims Snoke is more powerful than Sidious or Vader because "his resources are limitless" but that doesn't make much syntactical sense and I'm not sure how much stock we should put in actor opinions (unless if Mace Windu is still alive).
5. It's not enough to say "he's featless so he's weak", you know, absence of evidence != evidence of absence. Without the evidence to back it up it's unlikely he's Palpatine level, but it's not a given that he's some random weakling either.
6. I get the impression from the way Luke, Han and co. talk about him that he's not on the level of someone like Palpatine. Luke saw Palpatine as a threat on a galactic scale, but he just sort of is like "oh Snoke is manipulating Kylo" and I wonder if he bothers that much to hunt him down pre-TFA.
- I think he can't engage Luke due to the fact he's physically frail, he's obviously been severely injured.
- from the movies I didn't think of Kylo or Rey as that strong, thry both have a **** load of force potential I'm sure. But Kylo lost to an untrained Rey in TFA, Rey actually had better feats, she learned the Jedi mind trick, how to duel, etc very fast.
- I'd say he's pretty damn strong, he dominated both Rey and Kylo force wise did he not?
- what limitless resources? The empire was vastly bigger then the first order, but the first order is better run then the empire, Palpatine made several mistakes during the last days of the empire, the Death Star which was a big waste of resources for example. His military leaders weren't the best, etc. Snoke had no real base of operations so the loss of star killer base was no loss to TFO, Snoke himself was always on the move. TFO also had very strict training methods for their troops. Their military tech is also more advanced, and their leaders seem to be very competent.
- he had from pretty cool feats just not enough. Kylo and Rey obviously weren't in his level, we just didn't see enough if him to see if he was on palpatines level.
The flaw only able to be exploited by someone using The Force, otherwise the Death Star wasn't gonna be destroyed and even then Luke had to be saved by Han.
Piett didn't make any mistakes of his own.
Meanwhile Hux had the Resistance dead in the water, yet just cruised along instead of sending out TIEs to finish off the Command ship, or using his ship's engine that is noted to be as fast as a TIE fighter to catch up to the drifting Command ship and then blowing it out of the water. The intro scene of him with Poe was just incredibly dumb that he shouldn't have even entertained the call to begin with.
__________________ "Imperial troops have entered the base! Imperial troops have entered—"
―Jobin, warning Echo Base' stragglers of the snowtroopers' advance
Last edited by Zenwolf on Mar 2nd, 2018 at 04:48 PM
Registered: Jan 2018
Location: In between parallel universes
I literally just said that the scene CANNOT speak for itself all the time. Are you even listening to me? QUANCHI
The point wasn't that these guys are a big deal because of their force power. The point was that physicality is the factor which limits Snoke. It doesn't matter that he's more powerful with the force than the Emperor.
That's my opinion, and it's the truth. Your opinion is just plain false. The "butthurt losers" are just saying that this film objectively ignored established rules about the Star Wars continuity from the past, effectively retconning certain concepts. Disney decides it, which you keep bringing up, but they decided to retcon it. That is fact. They retconned certain consistencies, and thus relying on those consistencies for powerscaling or determining plot devices doesn't work.
I know this. I don't understand what the point of you explaining this to me is. The Force makes people more physically capable? Well, yeah, but in the case of someone who is completely blown away as if by an explosion, that's going to be hard to do. And Vader needed that suit to survive, even though he had the force. So yeah, it's possible that your physicality CAN be in such a state that the Force can't help you fight anymore.
I wasn't talking about the distance between Rey and Snoke, I was saying that Snoke is in HIS ROOM. He's the king of this place, and in his den, he's more capable and in control. More so than he would be outside of it. He has comforts. Which, according to the visual dictionary and Serkis himself, he needs. NEEDS, not wants. NEEDS.
Dude, I'm not saying that he wouldn't make himself comfortable if he wasn't injured. But the fact of the matter is, he's gravely injured and NEEDS comfort 24/7 just to deal with it. At least that's what my take on it is based on the evidence I've already presented 20 million times.
Yes, Vader CAN'T survive without his suit. This is like, canon fact. And the whole thing about sitting on rocks was just an example to show how Snoke would be incredibly uncomfortable and incapable outside of an atmosphere in his control. Palpatine and Vader could crash land on Ryloth, fight an entire hive of Lyleks, and blow up and entire city, just 'cause the Emperor felt like it. This is highly UNLIKELY for Snoke, as he is so badly injured, that being on uneven ground/anywhere without a chair 3 feet away from where he's standing is going to be a challenge for him.
Vader DOES lose based on my logic, AND IN THE CANON STORYLINE. Vader cannot survive long without his suit. Nor can he fight NEARLY as well without the suit. He NEEDS the suit. That's not even a point of contention. Why are you setting it up as if it's obviously false and you've checkmated me? Dude, Vader has that suit which allows him to do the things he does. Snoke has to rely on the broken shell of a body, and thus, is not as capable.
Alright sure, whatever I don't feel like going at the whole guards thing anymore.
He wasn't trying to scarr him. And it's possible that it's impossible to scar someone with Force lightning. Before you bring up Sidious' "scars", he was using a sith mask which wore off due to the lightning. The "scars" are effects of dark side degradation. And in the novelization, Luke resisted, but then the Emperor increased the power of the lightning quite a bit, without seeming to put in any more effort, and Luke couldn't resist against it anymore. And then, The Emperor kept exacerbating the effects of the lightning further and further even after THAT. So, yeah, it's quite commendable, that ability. In fact, I'm pretty sure that scene is what the filmmakers were trying to copy when they made the Snoke scene.
And no, he was not using Vader to protect him. He was using Vader to turn Luke to the dark side. It was completely possible that if Vader hadn't interfered, the Emperor could have used tutaminis, Force lightning, or even just telekenesis to save himself from the blow. No one with the force (especially if they're as powerful as Sidious) is ever "unarmed" as Sidious claimed he was.
Registered: Jan 2018
Location: In between parallel universes
Snoke's death is far more pathetic than Sidious'. Sidious made the error of thinking that a son's love was not as great as the decades of killing and subservience he'd put Vader through. He thought Vader was a devout slave, but he was wrong. There was just that bit of Anakin left in him.
Snoke made the error of having too big an ego. He thought he couldn't be betrayed, started gloating and showing off how much he KNEW he had won (mind you AFTER claiming that he knew why the empire fell and knew how to prevent it from falling again) right before facing what, to the audience, was quite a predictable turnout, especially if you've been paying close attention to Kylo's arc, even in the Force Awakens.
The emperor had tested his ways. And for decades, those ways had succeeded. He ruled the galaxy. He had the chosen one as his slave. He knew that no force, besides, I guess, love and the light side, could defeat him. This was time-tested. And he failed, when his strategy was shown to be flawed by the hero. For the first time in history. Snoke was new. He thought he knew what he was doing, but the first thing he tried to do, the FIRST time he tried to make a part of his plan come into fruition, he immediately failed, and RIGHT after gloating about how he could not fail. He tried to train Kylo well. He failed. he tried to kill Skywalker. He failed. He tried to kill Rey. He failed. He tried to make the force both the dark and the light. He failed yet again. Snoke commands respect, but as far as capabilities go, he's an even bigger idiot than that Quanchi guy on the KMC forum.
I mean I guess you can say that Palpatine was a coward, but that doesn't change the fact that he was less vulnerable. If Snoke is indeed less of a coward than Palpatine, then he keeps all that security because he NEEDS it, whereas Palpatine would have been pretty safe without it.
You're putting words in my mouth. I literally said it's NOT dumber.
Yeah, but Kylo would have killed him long ago, was he not afraid of getting attacked by the guards.
No, the novelization pretty much disproves that. And it isn't characteristic of Luke. And I can't imagine anyone in that circumstance really THINKING about the situation, it's kind of a hard place to think logically. And it make more sense thematically for the story. For all intents and purposes, Luke could not have defended himself.
But if he had, it's not like that would have done anything. The novelization of Return of the Jedi makes it clear that the Emperor's dominance over Luke is final. Nothing but Vader's intervention could have saved Luke in ANY circumstance. The Emperor is far more powerful than Luke, and could and DID dominate him as Snoke did Rey.
Forget Yoda. Forget the old rules. By the new rules, since Snoke's physicality has already made him be described as "vulnerable", it's basically as good as confirmed that bad physicality can hinder somone in this universe, regardless of how powerful they are in the force.
But Luke could have force pushed her out of the way and attacked her, but he didn't. He gave up when he realized she was more determined to get these answers than he was reluctant to give them.
If that kind of common sense thing is speculation, than any conclusion which can be derived from any piece of information is speculation. Just accept it dude, Luke's fight against Rey was NOT representative of his fighting power. He projected himself half a galaxy away. Such an act was said to be able to KILL Rey if she attempted it.
Where did you get that? He on,y used the force to aim the torpedoes, he was the only guy left to do it, pretty sure another skilled pilot could have done it.
Actually he did...when Luke (I think it was Luke) was headed for endor and gave an old security code it was piett who was going to let them by, Vader caught it, piett also told Vader the millennium Falcons hyper drive was disabled and it wasn't
Umm Hux didn't kill the resistance because Darth emo didn't let him. He was too busy attacking Luke a waste of time.
Snoke is dead, get over it. He was in a few scenes then you're all powerful character died, he was killed by a kid who throws temper tantrums who then took his throne
Where are the feats probing he's stronger then sidious?
Secondly why would the first order tear through the empire...the first order came from the empire and lives via their ideals. The emperor helped destroy the empire after his death as he felt that as they failed to protect him they shouldn't exist.
Also being old and crippled isn't the same thing.
Last edited by DarthPlaguis12 on Mar 3rd, 2018 at 06:25 AM
That is what you keep saying to ignore the evidence and to just focus on conjecture. That's why you fail. It's never ok to ignore evidence and to play make believe. ZENTREX.
Physicality limits Yoda, Sidious, and Vader as well. We see when every force user taps into the force thy surpass their physical limitations. Even the younger Jedi can't jump twenty to thirty feet you moron so the force allows them to bypass their limitations just as Snoke or any other force user.
Such as ? Examples.
We see Snoke fight and easily dismiss two extremely powerful force users. So what's the problem ?
So ? So your point is fighting inside a room of your own choosing provided hm advantages. Which ones ? Should he be naked in a cave ? What would change ? His powers and abilities are the same. You don't seem to make legitimate posts and pretend the environment altered his powers.
No, that is Vader. Snoke won't die and showed himself fine in combat which is the point you seem hell bent on ignoring.
Yoda would be uncomfortable as well. Nah, false. Palpatine was beaten by Windu and killed by a one handed Vader. It wasn't a quick attack and he was unable to free himself from his death grip. Sidious used a cane to walk as well so his body was old, scarred, and far past his physical peak. He had force powers to negate Father Time just as Snoke. It's the same thing.
Snoke won twice against powerful force users with his frail body. It didn't even cost hm to be injured when he was focusing. Vader was grazed by Luke in his suit prior to us training being complete in fair combat.
He wasn't trying but that's what he did. He was trying to reflect it and this damaged his face. No, that's not to be taken literally. The Lightning scarred him. Sidious confirms this in the film.
Luke didn't resist anything in the film. Nothing. It always hurt him. Snoke is a lot more powerful than Sidious which is confirmed by Serkis.
So Sidious was armed and still died despite having more than five seconds to stop a one armed saberless Vader.
The fact that Red Leader was on point with the targeting computer and it failed him, he was also a skilled pilot. Luke tried to use the targeting computer yet Ben told him to trust The Force, so it's clearly implied if not flat out noted that a pilot with a targeting computer wasn't going to cut it.
How is that Piett making a mistake? The code was old yes, but still valid enough and he did ask Vader if he should hold them, yet Vader instead let it go by. But even going by that, that's just one small part and even then the Rebel Strike Force was gonna be captured anyway, not to mention the Emperor allowed the Rebels to know the location of the generator and setting a trap for the entire Rebellion.
The hyperdrive was disabled, R2 fixed it. If R2 hadn't been there, the Falcon would have been captured, this was stated in the movie. That isn't Piett's fault at all.
I'm not talking about the final scene, I'm talking about when the fleet was just drifting in space while Hux's Command ship just kept firing shots to keep letting the Resistance know they were there instead of just doing the sensible thing and sending out Fighters/Bombers or increasing the engine speed of his own ship to catch up to it.
Plus frankly, the air around Hux and the other FO officers(for what little they've appeared)...I'm having a hard time sensing discipline.
__________________ "Imperial troops have entered the base! Imperial troops have entered—"
―Jobin, warning Echo Base' stragglers of the snowtroopers' advance
Last edited by Zenwolf on Mar 5th, 2018 at 03:55 AM
You are focusing on the wrong aspect. Both had huge egos but you need to focus on how they were killed. Both were betrayed and caught off guard. Snoke was killed quickly and by a lightsaber whereas Sidious was slowly manhandled and unable to use his power to break free. If Vader quickly did it in a second or so to me it wouldn't be as bad but he had plenty of time to mount a defense.
Ok stop wth this nonsense. Snoke obviously isn't new to this and he's older and obviously the master just as Sidious was. Your conjecture is trash. Snoke wasn't born in TFA so he rose to power just as Sidious.
By your own logic Sidious failed to turn and kill Luke. It's the same logic you moron. Vader actually changed his mind in turning Luke from the light so he listened to his apprentice. Pitiful.
He was afraid of Snoke not the guards. He knew Snoke was too powerful for hm and needed an opening.
False, without a saber sure but we don't know with a saber. Luke destroyed Vader but a weaponless Vader killed Sidious. You are a kid who believes these guys are unbeatable in every situation despite the film showing you and ramming into your psyche they are not myths and unbeatable.
Nah, he didn't take on Luke with a weapon. Snoke did so wth relative ease. You can speculate but I have evidence which always outweighs your speculation.
Old rules and old films are canon as are the new films. They aren't retconned and every force user goes past their limitations with the force. No, your conjecture isn't factual. It's just desperate and pitiful.
Could have but didn't. He fell on his ass quit with the fanboyism. You're as bad as Skip Bayless arguing sports if this guy caught this or didn't fumble that then it's a totally different outcome.
That's something else entirely. We see Snoke can bridge their two minds so he's clearly more force powerful than Rey but in combat he also proves it. Luke is more powerful but he fell on his ass and didn't cement it in combat.