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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » So - How powerful is Snoke, exactly?


So - How powerful is Snoke, exactly?
Started by: The Ellimist

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quanchi112
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Registered: May 2007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Are you serious ?
Well Hux is quite capable and competent. Thrawn is overrated IMO. He might not even get the movie treatment.


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Old Post Dec 28th, 2017 03:40 PM
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samappo
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Explain how Hux is competent.


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Old Post Dec 28th, 2017 11:04 PM
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The Ellimist
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
Well Hux is quite capable and competent.


lmao

Hux needs to get really basic tactical concepts explained to him by his subordinates in the film.


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Old Post Dec 28th, 2017 11:12 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Explain how Hux is competent.
His tactics in the film.


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Old Post Dec 28th, 2017 11:52 PM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao

Hux needs to get really basic tactical concepts explained to him by his subordinates in the film.
His ego bruises easily but he's quite capable.


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Old Post Dec 28th, 2017 11:53 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So we both agree that at some point Snoke was gonna have a problem with Kylo’s full potential either way, whether that potential is more Vader level or whether it’s more Luke level.

However the goal seems to have been to get him to Vader level, use his powers to help destroy Luke, and then eventually kill Kylo.


Huh?

The VD explicitly notes that Snoke wanted Kylo because he believes only a Skywalker could destroy the last jedi. Kylo wasn't meant to "help" destroy Luke. He was meant to destroy Luke. Hell, Snoke initially thought that Luke was Kylo's counterpart on the light side. I think it's made pretty clear that Kylo has Luke-level potential, if not higher.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Given he was already using back up to keep Kylo in check, it seems to go without saying he would have used all the resources at hand to destroy Kylo when he was of no further use.


That the Praetorian Guards instinctively come to Snoke's side doesn't mean that Snoke thought he absolutely needed them to subdue Kylo, (see Snoke vs. Rey).

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
It’s obvious Snoke wasn’t following the Rule of Two, finding his most powerful potential successor, given he had no interest in Rey.


Rey has no more or less potential than Kylo.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Again I just don’t agree that Rey was already Ren’s equal as of TFA or TLJ.

In raw power and potential? Sure. But without sufficient training and practice she can’t be IMO.


Well, I mean:


  • We have holistic intent clearly painted that Rey is on par with Kylo based on Snoke's statements, (essentially that Rey rose to meet Kylo; as Kylo grows stronger, so does Rey).
  • They both perform equally well against the Praetorian Guards.
  • They stalemate in their attempt to gran for the lightsaber.
  • In TFA, Rey's dormant power overwhelms Kylo on two occasions, (their TP battle and their lightsaber duel). Granted, Kylo was injured and had his spirit split in two during the latter, but conversely Rey had never wielded a lightsaber in her life prior to that duel.


People said the same things about ROTJ Luke vs. ROTJ Vader, ("How can Luke rival Vader if he has comparatively far less training and experience???). It's not my place to argue against the evidence we saw on screen, though. Rey is absolutely on par with Kylo.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I also question the “huge gap” between Snoke and Kylo when Snoke uses his guards as back up to aid him in keeping Kylo in check, and when Kylo was able to sucker punch Snoke whilst Snoke was actively reading his mind. Especially when Snoke’s TP abilities are amongst of his greatest showings that people keep harping on about.


There is absolutely no evidence that Snoke "needs" his guards to keep Kylo in check. Again, that they instinctively come to protect Snoke is irrelevant. They did the same with Rey when she grabbed Ren's lightsaber. And regarding the mind-reading, I'm not sure we really know enough context to indicate that Kylo is anywhere near Snoke. The most we can say as of right now is that Snoke misinterpreted Kylo's clarity and resolve. This absolutely does not override Snoke's treatment of Rey and the fact that Snoke was casually performing a feat that would kill Kylo or Rey had they tried to perform it themselves.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 04:53 AM
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quanchi112
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The power disparity between Snoke and Kylo/Rey is enormous but you'll see obstinate posters such as Darth Thor and other fanboys argue despite common sense to reinforce their bias. The VD is vastly taken out of context and the propaganda is perpetuated by cuck like Sidious fans too fearful of a judged debate.

What's even more hilarious is that Sidious let his guards try to attack Yoda when he entered the room but this is completely ignored. He didn't wave them off. Yoda ko'd them. Snoke didn't let his guards attack Ren or Rey. He clearly moves close to Kylo himself proving he doesn't need distance between these characters to display his dominance. We also see Snoke close enough to kiss Rey but since he's so superior in the force she isn't a threat whatsoever. He lets her rage out and fumble around for a lightsaber. She clearly isn't a threat no matter how close or far away she is to Snoke.


As any powerful leader Snoke has guards to protect him in case an assassination attempt takes place. This is both logical and at no point casts any doubt on the power levels we clearly see him display vs. Rey and Ren when the moment arrives in which they become aggressive with Snoke.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 05:17 AM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ



Rey has no more or less potential than Kylo.

Based on?

Wouldn't winning the force grip battle in TLJ which less training suggest Rey has more potential?

Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 05:47 AM
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quanchi112
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They are equals in terms of force power. The force elevated her power to balance out Kylo's rise in darkness.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 05:48 AM
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samappo
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Anyone who thinks Hux > Thrawn is a troll.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 08:43 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by samappo
Anyone who thinks Hux > Thrawn is a troll.
No. Thrawn cant even make a major film which is the big leagues. Let him pit his talents against some minor characters in the rebels series. Hux has trilogy treatment. Your opinion reeks of personal bias.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 03:37 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Huh?

The VD explicitly notes that Snoke wanted Kylo because he believes only a Skywalker could destroy the last jedi. Kylo wasn't meant to "help" destroy Luke. He was meant to destroy Luke. Hell, Snoke initially thought that Luke was Kylo's counterpart on the light side. I think it's made pretty clear that Kylo has Luke-level potential, if not higher.




He might well have Luke level potential (or higher). But From the movie dialogue it seems Snoke would have been more than content with Kylo getting to Vader level. Which is a clear indication Snoke knows he himself is no Vader.

And don't forget given Snoke's own actions the second he learns of Luke's location. He's totally willing to cheat to kill Luke, and he would clearly have no qualms using his Forces to kill off Kylo once that's done.





quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That the Praetorian Guards instinctively come to Snoke's side doesn't mean that Snoke thought he absolutely needed them to subdue Kylo, (see Snoke vs. Rey).




Doesn't matter, given the guards are there, makes Snoke's "domination" of Kylo essentially a Non-Feat.

Kylo makes his move as soon as he has back up to take out those guards. If he can't defeat all those guards on his own, then how could you possibly expect him to challenge Snoke when Snoke is backed up by those guards, and those guards showed they will act the second Kylo makes his move?



quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Rey has no more or less potential than Kylo.




I doubt the Force balances them out precisely the same. But meh. Even if they are, there's more to an apprentice than just Force Potential. Snoke clearly wasn't looking to follow the Rule of Two. He wanted Rey dead, and he would have betrayed Ren the second he didn't need him anymore, just as Han Solo explains to him in TFA.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, I mean:


  • We have holistic intent clearly painted that Rey is on par with Kylo based on Snoke's statements, (essentially that Rey rose to meet Kylo; as Kylo grows stronger, so does Rey).
  • They both perform equally well against the Praetorian Guards.
  • They stalemate in their attempt to gran for the lightsaber.
  • In TFA, Rey's dormant power overwhelms Kylo on two occasions, (their TP battle and their lightsaber duel). Granted, Kylo was injured and had his spirit split in two during the latter, but conversely Rey had never wielded a lightsaber in her life prior to that duel.



1)No, her POTENTIAL has risen to match Kylo's (or higher). She wasn't born a Skywalker so could not have been his counterpart otherwise.

2)Considering they fought different guards, that's too speculative. It's more then likely the most combat efficient guards went to face Kylo and vice versa.

3)Yes they stalemated reaching for Luke's lightsaber. The same Saber which Maz Kanata states in TFA calls to Rey now.

4)I wouldn't say her TP "overwhelmed" Kylo in TFA. He read parts of her mind, but she resisted him reading the important stuff. In turn she read some of his mind, but it's not like he was expecting or resisting that.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
People said the same things about ROTJ Luke vs. ROTJ Vader, ("How can Luke rival Vader if he has comparatively far less training and experience???). It's not my place to argue against the evidence we saw on screen, though. Rey is absolutely on par with Kylo.



Oh Lucas himself would say Luke was only half trained and not on par with Vader yet.

No Rey hasn't proven herself Kylo's equal in every aspect. Not at all.

I mean what are you actually suggesting here? That Rey doesn't need to read those Jedi books, or train in the slightest, but that she's still going to magically be equal to Kylo in Episode 9?

That's taking Snoke's words (and the whole Mary Sue thing) way too far.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There is absolutely no evidence that Snoke "needs" his guards to keep Kylo in check. Again, that they instinctively come to protect Snoke is irrelevant. They did the same with Rey when she grabbed Ren's lightsaber. And regarding the mind-reading, I'm not sure we really know enough context to indicate that Kylo is anywhere near Snoke. The most we can say as of right now is that Snoke misinterpreted Kylo's clarity and resolve. This absolutely does not override Snoke's treatment of Rey and the fact that Snoke was casually performing a feat that would kill Kylo or Rey had they tried to perform it themselves.




Now what are you suggesting? That we should just give Snoke the feat of beating Kylo, even though Kylo never got the chance to attack back?


It seems like some here just really want to put Snoke on Palpatine's level, and are willing to jump there without sufficient evidence.


Look, Kylo killed his Master as soon as he had back up to take on those guards. It's not that easy to take out your Master (even by surprise). If it was Palpatine wouldn't have survived having 3 different apprentices, and only finally get killed while distracted by 2 Skywalkers, and still take one of them out with him.

Therefore it's logical to assume, that even to take out a Dark Side Master by surprise, the Apprentice must be already approaching their level of power.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2018 11:56 PM
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Rebel95
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor

4)I wouldn't say her TP "overwhelmed" Kylo in TFA. He read parts of her mind, but she resisted him reading the important stuff. In turn she read some of his mind, but it's not like he was expecting or resisting that.




Wait a sec... you've definitely said Rey dominated Ren in their TP duel in the past. Yet now that it doesn't support your stance here you change your mind whistle

Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 01:43 AM
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quanchi112
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rebel95
Wait a sec... you've definitely said Rey dominated Ren in their TP duel in the past. Yet now that it doesn't support your stance here you change your mind whistle
Bingo. He changes his stances from thread to thread. He's like another Skip Bayless who uses all kinds of double standards from topic to topic. The logic doesn't matter just the guys he likes more. Same logic doesn't apply to them. You'll hear the absurd reasoning why it's different just like with Darth Thor.


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 01:49 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rebel95
Wait a sec... you've definitely said Rey dominated Ren in their TP duel in the past. Yet now that it doesn't support your stance here you change your mind whistle




That wasn’t in a context of a versus match. That was a Mary Sue complaint. And make no mistake, that was a 100% Mary Sue moment.

Besides the same people who repeatedly argued “BUT KYLO WAS INJURED” are now arguing Rey beating Kylo as part of the argument that they’re equals.

Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 09:39 AM
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Ursumeles
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Surprisingly enough, Rey beating a injured Kylo is impressive as well, considering it was her first lightsaber duel ever.


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 12:49 PM
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quanchi112
I win

Registered: May 2007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That wasn’t in a context of a versus match. That was a Mary Sue complaint. And make no mistake, that was a 100% Mary Sue moment.

Besides the same people who repeatedly argued “BUT KYLO WAS INJURED” are now arguing Rey beating Kylo as part of the argument that they’re equals.
She still stalemated Ren in force power in TLJ. You use double standards all the time. It's been pointed out and you'll still try to h1 your way out of this. Saying Mary Sue isn't an argument it's you using words to try to justify what occurred. Just deal with the facts, biased guy.


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 01:45 PM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Surprisingly enough, Rey beating a injured Kylo is impressive as well, considering it was her first lightsaber duel ever.



Yes, was a proper Mary Sue moment.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by quanchi112
She still stalemated Ren in force power in TLJ. You use double standards all the time. It's been pointed out and you'll still try to h1 your way out of this. Saying Mary Sue isn't an argument it's you using words to try to justify what occurred. Just deal with the facts, biased guy.



Sshh. Let the grown ups debate this.

Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 01:47 PM
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quanchi112
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Typical biased response.

laughing out loud


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 01:48 PM
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Ursumeles
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So, whats your argument? That she lost her Mary Sue powers the moment Snoke ragdolled her? lmao


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2018 01:50 PM
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