I thought that because you kept pretending you knew what my stance was even though you blatantly didn't.
With you appearing completely serious however, I don't think it's productive to ridicule you by calling you a troll or a retard. And we do have a different way of thinking at a fundamental level, so it's best that we not pursue it, then. Agree to disagree.
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Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
Yes, more circumstantial than Ziost or Katarr, I'll just post what my buddy wrote up comparing Nihilus' drain to Sidious' on Byss, which he also used as a debunking thread for Sidious' Byss drain.
[[The fifth and final reason is that this of course means the feat takes no effort on Palpatine's part, and as such means it is not even close to his theoretical limit with the power. Nihilus on the other hand had to exert maximum effort on draining a much smaller amount of people, and even then there was a survivor, indicating that killing them all was beyond his ability.]]
Okay so this needs to be addressed first. BYSS WAS A STRONG NEXUS POINT BEFORE PALPATINE EVER SHOWED UP. The Rakata empire built it as a base of operations and built temples and other structures there. When Sidious eventually shows up he opts to allow such structures to remain while he orders the building of others. That's important to note because Rakata ships operated through Force empowered Hyperdrive systems, and they targeted worlds Rich in Force Energy to travel to and from.
Special Extras, First Two Pages of Star Wars Evasive Action Recruitment. These two pages show that even during the *construction phase* of the planet when the site hadn't even been fully set up and optimized, it was greatly empowering Vader and Sids because of its Nexus state. It also shows that Vader who was not draining the workers on the planet, was able to easily and without effort draw upon the power the workers and nexus produced:
So it's true it takes little effort on Palpatine's part because the feat is empowered by the Nexus that is the planet itself. It's like saying you can push a tank down the road and it takes no effort, but oh, the tank is already turned on and in drive. Lol.
Now in regard to Nihilus, he's not using the power of a Nexus to perform his tasks like Sidious was. Nihilus drained worlds through his own power.
In regard to ease, Nihilus has been shown to speak and drain worlds:
[[The range of his abilities covered the entire galaxy, and he was maintaining the feeding for almost three decades in a row. Take any comic, book or video game, or even the original movies, and he is at the back of his mind leeching on the helpless people of Byss as they endlessly fuel his power.]]
While his use of Force Storm light years away (iirc Byss is like 10k light years from Coruscant), his power is also being greatly enhanced by Byss. Technically both Nihilus and Sidious have the "Distant Power" Force Secret, which means their Peak reach (without being amped by anything) is "anywhere in the same Star System".
Our Star System is 287.46 billion km in diameter so if we were to put Pluto on the furthest point away from the sun and then put a clone Pluto on the other side of the sun the same radius away, Nihilus and Sids would be able to use their power to effect anything in that range.
The difference is, Sids is being amped by Byss which dramatically increases his range, and Nihilus using his own power.
Honestly that's not as impressive since he's not doing it on his own power. Still impressive though.
On a side note, we don't ever get a reason for why Nihilus likes to roll up on planets to drain them but I suspect it has to do with his Wound Aura. Just as Malachor V has Wound Aura (or area around the planet where the Force doesn't travel), Nihilus also projects this aura. When it comes to people "becoming one with the Force" if they are hindered by something (like the Star Forge's Force Prisons), they will be stuck in limbo until their Force Energy is expended and they become nothing (KOTOR 1 Malak Fight with Description). If a person were to be draining these trapped souls, they would be able to get THE MOST they can get out of them without them dying and becoming one with the Force thereby retaining some Force Energy. So its not really a matter of range, its a matter of squeezing out every single drop possible.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
[[The next reason is that Palpatine employed other Force powers in conjunction with Force Drain. Nihilus simply devoured their life force, whereas Palpatine used complex telepathic powers alongside his draining ones.]]
ALSO through the huge machine that is Byss' nexus power. I mean you're acting like this is proof that he is powerful because he's using all these powers at once... when he's practically sitting on a nuclear reactor letting it flow through him.
There's also the fact that these were people who were ALREADY in a worshipful state of mind towards him, which makes it far easier to mentally dominate them. So I mean...
a.) They are already enthralled by him
b.) They are on a beautiful disarming paradise planet
c.) They are saturated in Dark Side energy that pushes them towards accepting his power.
The number is big yes, but the feat when closely examined... eh still not really him doing it on his own, but doing it through the nuclear reactor he's squatting on.
Additionally Nihilus didn't just drain their life force, he caused the flow of the Force to stop existing wherever he fed. The places he touched became wounds in the Force. Sure, draining people is cool and all, but when you give the Force itself a black eye and busted lip and tell it not to come around those areas again... well that's something different isn't it? Lol.
[[He did this to a far greater amounts of people than Nihilus did. In the end Byss housed almost 20 billion people, as opposed to the meager population of Katarr numbering only a few million at the time Nihilus consumed them.]]
In all actuality it would be easier to drain Byss in Sidious' position than it would be Nihilus draining Katarr. Reasoning?
As you can see I highlighted each thing that adds difficulty in yellow, orange, and red, and red for the bonus difficulty.
YELLOW = Easy for willing, worshipful subjects.
This is definitely the Byss residents. They were enthralled and worshipful of Sidious in their paradise kingdom.
ORANGE = Difficult for ambivalent or apathetic individuals.
These are people who just don't have an opinion. Now Byss was indeed a planet 19.7 strong, but 2% of that (394,000,000) were aliens who were tricked to go there, and then were trapped on the planet as slaves. Those guys definitely hated Sidious especially after seeing and knowing of so many other (this is why the Essential Atlas states MOST of Byss' population was in a dream-like state lol) non-humans butchered over the years (the Evasive Action Recruitment comic shows "one way trips" with alien possessions incinerated upon leaving). Still, even if 394,000,000 Million were at least apathetic to Sidious, 19,306,000,000 worshiped and adored him, cancelling them out.
RED = Heroic for ENEMIES, +10 For each individual imbued with the light side of the Force.
Sidious was beloved by the people of Byss, and carefully selected through applicants who were not force sensitive at all.
This is definitely NOT the case with the Katarr residents. Katarr had millions of Force Sensitive Miraluka who HABITUALLY joined the ranks of the Jedi Knights. There was a conclave on Katarr where nearly a hundred senior Jedi were present. The Miraluka were light side oriented.
So in regard to which of the two is a more difficult feat, Nihilus is literally performing his feat through THE MOST DIFFICULT of circumstances, and he does so with casual ease.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
I don't dispute that Yoda was the mostpowerful Jedi ever, I don't hold any iteration of Revan as a Jedi above Yoda, I only hold SoR Revan above Yoda.
Eh, I agree on that account I guess.
Your lack of being impressed by them doesn't detract from their deats, physically changing the very nature of a planet as they did is still comparable to what Plagueis did, and Vitiate is confirmed to be far superior to the likes of them. Not saying that specifically solidifies Valk>Plagueis, just that it's a totally valid point.
My guess is that the parentheses are quotations of another poster that your friend replied to? I'm not sure how I feel about arguing for someone else, although he seems to share my stance in general so I'll pick it up where he left off.
Relevant sources... but you cited a bunch of sources that call Byss a dark side nexus after Palpatine's arrival. You went as far as to cite DE, for heaven's sake. The only point you have that's valid is for the Rakatans selecting worlds strong in the Force, which is fair enough but that was a great many millennia before Palpatine's time. If you take a look at Force nexuses, especially dark side nexuses, they diminish after many years of inactivity (with respect to Force use) — Korriban, Yavin IV, Onderon, etc. Now, there are examples of worlds such as Lehon and Dxun whose nexuses seemed to mostly persevere for millennia, but that's still only two or three thousand years, as compared to more than twenty-five thousand with Byss.
Certainly the fact is that by the time of the rise of the Empire, Byss was not a renowned dark side nexus. It becomes known as a powerful dark side nexus because of Palpatine in fact, as clearly stated in Byss and the Deep Core:
By the time Vader arrives in Evasive Action: Recruiment, Palpatine notes that he is already siphoning energy from the workers. From this we can deduce that Palpatine has already begun corrupting the planet and turning into a dark side nexus, even though that's absolutely nothing compared to what it'll become in the future.
This doesn't address the crux of the feat which is that Palpatine actually feeds on them when he's away from the planet, ie. not benefitting from the nexus. It's outright stated that the Emperor is forever draining the inhabitants of Byss:
As we all know, he does not spend all his time on Byss; in fact, he spends a great deal of time off-world. Certainly one has to account for the fact that in almost every source in the OT era where we see Palpatine, he is not on Byss, and he has a great many of other retreats as well. Yes, he's amped while he's on Byss (thanks to himself), but he also keeps it up while he's not on Byss, when he's not amped. So no, he doesn't require the nexus.
That's not true, actually. Nihilus is also enslaving his crew and feeding from them, and obtains a flow of power from the Ravager according to the Prima Guide.
So he was amped when he drained Katarr, but Palpatine was able to drain Byss without being amped.
Funny that you say quotes shouldn't be taken if they're contradicted but here you are taking a clearly hyperbolic bit of prose at face value. If Nihilus can annihilate worlds with a thought, why did he bother with telekinetically incapacitating Traya before draining her? Why did he have to stun the Exile's party, then drop the stun when he attempted drain on the Exile? Why did he blast other worlds into ruin despite draining them? Why did he prep for Telos?
Spared after finding her unconscious on the planet, sure. Is there proof that he spared her from the initial attack? That's a level of control over Drain that is pretty remarkable; a notion contradicted by Kreia who suggests that he can't really control his power, rather that his power controls him. Even Visas' dialogue implies that Nihilus roamed the planet after ravaging it, then spared Visas upon discovering her body. Not so much having targeted her for survival all along and sparing her from the actual Drain attack.
Actually, that quote doesn't say anything. "Vampiric hunger" in that Sidious liked the experience of the Drain and wanted more, sure, but that's nothing compared to Nihilus who was literally possessed by hunger to the point of no longer being in control of his power and "being bodily macerated" per the KotORCG.
That's an RPG game mechanic, lol. I don't count this.
However, if you do want to use this, then the argument that Nihilus was too far out of range to drain Telos is immediately rendered invalid. We then revert to the SWTOR codex saying that Nihilus prepared to drain Telos (and since he has Distant Power according to you, this doesn't mean he was moving his ship closer), and that also nullifies the Katarr feat as it now leads us to believe that Nihilus had to prep to drain Katarr as well. As a result, all of Nihilus' world-draining feats are now invalid.
This doesn't make any sense unless you're suggesting that Nihilus' Drain is imperfect enough for him to not attempt to devour worlds unless they're within immediate range of him. That does, of course align with Visas' survival, but diminishes the feat. Palpatine being able to drain as usual from anywhere in the galaxy far supersedes Nihilus requiring immediate range to drain the planet.
Once again, this is an RPG game mechanic, so I don't count it.
Moreover, the fact remains that they're all willing because Sidious controlled their minds, even if some were willing before. This is a repeatedly stated fact:
The fact that the mental enslavement and the life draining are mentioned back-to-back in the same sentence affirms the idea that Palpatine enslaved them so he could drain them more easily. So even under your system, the twenty billion may be willing, but that's because Palpatine is simultaneously mind controlling the twenty billion there. In fact, another source describes Palpatine draining "almost mindless" individuals, not willing ones. Again, the willingness is perpetuated by Palpatine's mind control:
The best part is that he's maintaining both the mental control and the draining — of a population of twenty billion — from across the galaxy, as he's going about his business and doing other things, both obviously representing no conscious effort on his part. They're both effortless, as are other passive things that the Emperor has going on while he's doing this (controlling and keeping the entirety of the Empire together, for one).
Katarr had millions of Miraluka but well under a hundred Jedi (not nearly a hundred; there were barely a hundred Jedi actually alive at the time and we've yet to account for the many Jedi struck down by Sion and his assassins). That's nothing compared to twenty billion, even if they were Force-sensitive.
Most difficult? Katarr was a surprise attack. Nihilus attacked people who were just as defenceless as the individuals on Byss. They weren't willingly submitting, but they had no idea what hit them. That was as easy as it got, lol. Not to mention that per the SWTOR codex's claim that Nihilus prepped for Telos (on top of my other concerns about his use of Drain even on individual entities and the TCSWE quote about blasting worlds into ruin), it's probable that he also prepped for Katarr given he had ample time and foreknowledge (the planet called to him like a beacon from across the galaxy).
While you can shade some nebulous aspects as to Palpatine's Drain, there's no way you can play off Nihilus' Katarr feat as some pure feat devoid of dubious circumstances. The context is highly ambiguous and there's a lot of questions raised by Nihilus' considerably inferior applications of Drain in other scenarios. The fact that Sidious kept up his Drain and mind control off-world without any effort mostly eliminates any suspicions over his feat, whereas Nihilus' history conflicts with the idea of him effortlessly cleansing an entire world of life.
Vitiate has only ever faced Revan as a Jedi, though. I don't agree with SoR Revan being above Yoda either but we can discuss that later.
The Dread Masters haven't done anything comparable to Plagueis. Their alterations of Oricon were the product of experimentation and presumably rituals. I don't really prop up the Naboo feat anymore but this is just not the same.
I realise that all this time, we've only been debating Katarr and Byss. We've forgotten about Ziost, which was accomplished via ritual. That's as circumstantial as it gets. It's not less circumstantial than Byss or frankly even Katarr.
300 years of growth, yeah Ziost doesn't exactly need to be a Ritual, even considering the quote, puts Ziost on a whole another level from ToS, which is a mechainc ritual which would of literally done the same thing, it's clear they were hinting at it,via VItiate's raw power.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
The Dread Masters didn't use rituals to transforming Oricon, it's stated to be the effect of the Phobis Devices. That's not even their best marker of power.
It's specifically stated NOT to be a ritual. How you can go through the mental gymnastics of misinterpreting that as meaning it is a ritual is absolutely baffling.
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Revan based that off a vague claim of Vitiate being stronger, which is far from a concrete analysis. 300 years of growth should be a lot, but is that enough to make up for the assistance of eight thousand other Sith Lords and change ten days of ritual work into an instant? I don't think so.
The one quote I know of which is purported to say that actually doesn't say that at all, and the interpretation that it's not a ritual involves significant word-based gymnastics.
Is there anything else?
EDIT: Your edit's confused me. Is this referring to the Dread Masters not using a ritual on Oricon or Vitiate not using a ritual on Ziost? Nevertheless, the Dread Masters are suggested to have experimented on the planet, which is still more than what Plagueis did on Naboo.
He obviously was originally basing his claims factoring in those Sith, with 300 years easily. Unless you don't think Revan can make a basis of Vitiate's strength in compassion to his own, which is close.
I took it differently, you would have to show me, where it says differently.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
It's clearly stating that unlike the rumors of worlds being snuffed out by rituals[Nathema] or superweapons such as the Temple of Sacrifice used by Revan(Yavin IV), that Ziost is a clear display of the dark side taken to its extreme.
He had no physical means to enact a ritual either given that all of his decently powerful thralls were neutralised prior.
This is utterly laughable, its Sheev = the most politically powerful Sith tier. Good God.
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No it isn't, lmao. The "but" seems to refer to the difference between Ziost's clear existence and "whispers" and "rumors" of things happening a long time ago.
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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Lmfao, it's saying that planets rendered lifeless by rituals or arcane machinery, I.E. it's clearly not referring to solely rituals as you're inferring. By your logic it'd also just as likely mean some form of arcane superweapon. It's clearly making a distinction between that and the 'corrosive power of the dark side taken to its extreme'.
It's very clearly said in both Revan and Shadow of Revan that he's beyond the need of rituals. What's also pretty horrid for your argument is that he had no means of enacting one in the first place.
This desperation to lowball Valkorion with ritual claims is getting amusing.
Oh and as far as the Dread Masters are concerned:
The devices are confirmed to be capable of replicating this:
It couldn't be clearer. What's better is that the power of the Dread Masters was achieved by harnessing, mastering and perfecting the Phobis Devices. Yet the Dread Masters were directly kept in check by Valkorion's power and they're confirmed to be nothing next to him.
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Jan 13th, 2018 01:41 AM
