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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Exar Kun and Kyp Durron accolades.


Exar Kun and Kyp Durron accolades.
Started by: AncientPower

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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Tbh the intent is pretty clear that physical Kun would indeed be more powerful than JA Luke. smile


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 02:32 PM
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An_Sock
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
For the spirit fight:



Kun "discorporates". Presumably that does him some kind of damage, because he would not seek to "escape" the situation at hand. Furthermore, Luke doesn't discorporate, and just has the "cold ice" feeling when he encounters Kun. Further more, Luke's attack leaves Kun reeling, something that certainly doesn't happen to Luke.

Obviously Luke has the upper hand, lol. Obviously he is superior to Kun, in this particular encounter. If Kun truly is invincible, he would simply continue to mock, not "discorporate" and "reel", and immediately escape the situation, as though meeting a foe stronger than him.

Either that, or its just Luke's force energy vs Kun's force energy( they are pure energy at this point), in which case, again, Luke comes off the better.



It isn't a "clash of force energies" because Luke was the one who attacked Kun. Rather than a mutual struggle of force powers occurring. This is no better than Yoda landing a force push on Palpatine. Which we know is irrelevant because he looses in a direct struggle of Force combat. For a real life example, you and I can have the exact same strength and weight, but if you decide to rugby tackle me while I'm standing still, The chances are that I'm going to either fall over or be sent backwards are pretty high, because you decided to use your momentum to push me. Or like one car being driven into a slightly bigger car that's stationary, the bigger car will be sent backwards, but not because it has less energy(mass) than the smaller car, but because it's not using as much energy than than the car being driven.

Also, in the Jedi vs Sith guide, Corran horn predicted that Kun's spirit could have wrecked more havoc on the Praxium had he not lavishly spent energies reviving the Sun Crusher or Removing Luke's spirit from his body. Dismissing this as just a character opinion is benign when the character holds a decent amount of authority in his own universe and especially when he's offering an explanation that's reasonable.

This of course, would mean that Kun was not on equal footing with Skywalker during their time as spirits given that his reserves would have been depleted.

Last edited by An_Sock on Jan 1st, 2018 at 03:45 PM

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 03:40 PM
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Azronger
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Ziggy, since you seem to be back debating now, will you get back to defending Galen and his clone against Kun?


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:17 PM
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An_Sock
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I will debate the Odan Urr > Galen premise based on his defending of the shockwave. I'll concede that Kun might be able to handle two starkillers.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:21 PM
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AncientPower
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Ten shockwaves, Ziggy. An event described as more devastating than anything prior to it.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:23 PM
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LordOfTheLight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by An_Sock
It isn't a "clash of force energies" because Luke was the one who attacked Kun. Rather than a mutual struggle of force powers occurring. This is no better than Yoda landing a force push on Palpatine. Which we know is irrelevant because he looses in a direct struggle of Force combat. For a real life example, you and I can have the exact same strength and weight, but if you decide to rugby tackle me while I'm standing still, The chances are that I'm going to either fall over or be sent backwards are pretty high, because you decided to use your momentum to push me. Or like one car being driven into a slightly bigger car that's stationary, the bigger car will be sent backwards, but not because it has less energy(mass) than the smaller car, but because it's not using as much energy than than the car being driven.

Also, in the Jedi vs Sith guide, Corran horn predicted that Kun's spirit could have wrecked more havoc on the Praxium had he not lavishly spent energies reviving the Sun Crusher or Removing Luke's spirit from his body. Dismissing this as just a character opinion is benign when the character holds a decent amount of authority in his own universe and especially when he's offering an explanation that's reasonable.

This of course, would mean that Kun was not on equal footing with Skywalker during their time as spirits given that his reserves would have been depleted.


Ah, no, you misunderstand. By clash of force energies, I meant not literally as in, both would bombard each other with force powers. I meant that as a clash between each other.

You have to understand, your entire first passage has no relevance here. This isn't a "physical" clash happening. Spirits don't behave like physical objects, and absolutely do not follow the same laws that govern physical entities or objects.

It is just their force energies colliding with each other. Luke and Kun themselves are at this point, pure manifestations of the force. In other words, pure force energy. When they clash, it is not about who attacks first or who takes who off guard, it is literally about whose force energy is stronger than the other. Because the fight isn't like any "rugby tackle" or "fistfight" at all.

Take the event itself. Luke passes "clean through" Kun, not being repelled by him as would any physical object. If spirits could affect each other like physical objects do or push each other like normal beings do, this one event disproves the notion entirely. Speaking of which, nothing should have happened to Kun as well. He too should have stayed put, exactly as he was. Since neither of them used force powers, we know that this is the only clash happening, that of force essences. All their power is localized only in their respective forms, not unleashed.

I simply view it as whose force essence or being is more powerful than the other. Luke's was in this case, which is why he was the one standing firm, instead of being repelled. Which is why Kun was the one discorporating, not Luke, and which is why Kun immediately "escaped". Emphasis "escape". More emphasis on Kun discorporating.

Coming to your second point, yeah, I am aware of it, there is nothing special in that. You are talking about Kun's force energies being depleted? Not only had the guy prior to becoming a spirit drained thousands of Massassi, he had also completely drained Gantoris's life force and was draining Kyp's. He also had the advantage of Yavin's DS nexus being among the most powerful in the galaxy. What does Luke have? Literally nothing compared to that. He has none of those advantages, is completely reliant on his base power and is hindered by the nexus rather than being empowered by it.

As for your take on character opinions, yes, they may hold certain level of authority in their universe. They however do not hold authority on how powerful other beings are, especially if they have known them for a period of a scant few weeks. Especially since Luke here, is far from his optimum self.

Last edited by LordOfTheLight on Jan 1st, 2018 at 04:36 PM

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:34 PM
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An_Sock
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
Ten shockwaves, Ziggy.


Doesn't matter. The nature of explosions mean that they're subject to uniform distribution. Meaning that only a tiny percentage of those shockwaves can actually hit Odan Urr.

On top of that, the shockwave didn't even melt the surface of the planet, guaranteeing that the temperature was below 1500 degrees. The mountains and cliffs were still intact on the planet too, meaning that the Shockwaves couldn't destroy those either. Azronger, was making out like Odan could match the power of a supernova. If that is true it has yet to be seen.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:34 PM
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AncientPower
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He survives ten shockwaves that utterly desolate the surface of the planet, to the point that even 4,200 years later it is utterly lifeless. Given that our indications of the full scale damage are the fact that everything around Urr in the comic, including entire buildings, and evidently some of the surrounding mountains when comparing TOTJ to DE, then it's clearly extensive.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:44 PM
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LordOfTheLight
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This is like saying Grevious is planetary because he survived a planet busting explosion.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:46 PM
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AncientPower
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Kun's spirit used the Temples as anchors for his spirit, so he isn't being amped further than preserving his own essence. As is noted when he's stated to lay dormant and can barely kill a few pirates who trespass against him. The Massassi sacrifice fueled the ritual that allowed him to ascend from his physical form, he wouldn't have any energies to use from that. Gantoris' life force was depleted when Kun attempted to convert Luke. Kyp Durron was out in the galaxy and actively resisting Kun's possession.

Just wanted to counter those claims.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:53 PM
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AncientPower
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
This is like saying Grevious is planetary because he survived a planet busting explosion.


Not it isn't. It's merely a measure of his power amped by Ossus that his Force barrier tanks the shockwaves that hit him and devastate the entire surface of the planet. An insanely impressive feat no matter what way you swing it.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 04:56 PM
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An_Sock
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On top of that, The Yavin nexus is not something that seems to hinder any of the Jedi on it. Luke's students drew from the temples without being tempted to the dark side when blowing away 16(?) star destroyers.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:02 PM
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LordOfTheLight
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Cool. So Grevious is planetary.

"Kun's spirit used the Temples as anchors for his spirit, so he isn't being amped further than preserving his own essence. As is noted when he's stated to lay dormant and can barely kill a few pirates who trespass against him. The Massassi sacrifice fueled the ritual that allowed him to ascend from his physical form, he wouldn't have any energies to use from that. Gantoris' life force was depleted when Kun attempted to convert Luke. Kyp Durron was out in the galaxy and actively resisting Kun's possession."

The temples are preserving his spirit, sure. The DS energy of Yavin distributed across the planet isn't. It's doing more.

No, it would also have allowed him enough power to wreak havoc on the galaxy if the Jedi hadn't countered with the WoL. Basically, what happened to Luke except the latter didn't drain the thousands of Massassi.

Unless you have a source, then no, nothing says Gantoris's life force was depleted completely by Kun. And Kyp Durron was still under the full control of Kun who was feeding off of him.

All bogus claims. I think you should let Ziggy do the actual debating.

Last edited by LordOfTheLight on Jan 1st, 2018 at 05:07 PM

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:04 PM
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Ursumeles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by An_Sock
I will debate the Odan Urr > Galen premise based on his defending of the shockwave. I'll concede that Kun might be able to handle two starkillers.
Urr? Do you mean Ood?


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:12 PM
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An_Sock
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Urr? Do you mean Ood?


They are basically the same character.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:14 PM
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LordOfTheLight
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Quick question, how does Kun scale off the Ood that handled the shockwave?

If I am not wrong, amped Ood put Kun on his ass with a force blast, and put up an impenetrable barrier.

Genuinely curious.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:20 PM
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AncientPower
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Kun uses a ritual powered by Massassi sacrifices to transcend to spiritual form and escape the Jedi. The Jedi trap him with a WoL. Kun is forced to anchor his spirit to the Yavin IV temples in order to not fade away. His Force reserves are entirely spent. He awakens 4,000 years later and gradually draws energy from the students to sustain himself. This energy is spent when Kun attempts to convert Luke with illusions. He drains Gantoris to gain a source of power which sustains him and uses that energy to empower Kyp to defeat Horn, draw out the Suncrusher and defeat Luke. Horn destroys one of the Temples and weakens Kun further, before Kun spends more energy ragdolling Horn. With his energy spent and Kyp gone, the Jedi students realise he has no more servants to draw energy from and he is thus defeated.

quote:
Drained from thousands of Massassi sacrifices.. the power is rising. The ritual begun.. Sith power objects unleashed! Even as the Jedi approach, Exar Kun prepares himself to unleash his powerful spirit.. to shed the chains of his mortal body and run rampant throughout the cosmos!
- Tales of the Jedi


quote:
He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him—by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn. Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting hi to use Sith power to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.
Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook


quote:
The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Suncrusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master.
- Corran Horn, Jedi vs Sith The Essential Guide to the Force


quote:
She[Tionne] supposes that the students have a chance of defeating him, since Kun no longer has his servants to draw power from, he[Streen] is his only source.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook


The Temple focal points draw Yavin's latent taint, so I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:23 PM
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AncientPower
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Quick question, how does Kun scale off the Ood that handled the shockwave?

If I am not wrong, amped Ood put Kun on his ass with a force blast, and put up an impenetrable barrier.

Genuinely curious.


Amped Ood catches Kun off-guard with a fully powered Force blast but only manages superficial damage.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:24 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by An_Sock
I will debate the Odan Urr > Galen premise based on his defending of the shockwave. I'll concede that Kun might be able to handle two starkillers.


Concession accepted.

Anyway, the supernovas destroyed every city on Ossus. It's not much but still pretty neat:

KAM: Computer on.

Sound: Computer reactivates.

KAM: Continue overview of planet Ossus.

COMPUTER: Ossus. Number of existing cities: Zero. Number of former city locations: 12,006. Topography: Mountainous, rich in minerals. Sentient Life: Ossus is inhabited by pre-technology humanoids. Surface Structure: Tribal.


Dark Empire II Audio Drama


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:41 PM
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LordOfTheLight
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Yeah, not sure what the point of the rant was. The comparison being made here is with Luke who:

1. Didn't drain an entire planet's population of Massassi before being ripped from his body. Essentially that means that whatever state Luke is in as a spirit relative to his self at full power, the ratio for Kun as a spirit relative to his full power is is a lot more. It's nothing but common sense.

2. Didn't feed off Gantoris completely, draining his entire life force. Again as I said, that extra energy wasn't available to Kun, and in retrieving the Sun Crusher( which was done by Kyp) and bolstreting Kyp's power to defeat Luke, there still isn't a quote that says that Gantoris's entire life force was completely spent on both those endeavors. He would obviously be weaker than if he hadn't done the above two, but that is a pointless statement to make, as the Horn quote says.

3. Didn't have Kun's hold on Kyp which was complete and across the galaxy till Kun finally was obliterated. As said, he fed off of his apprentice's anger, which Kyp had in plenty and was doing that throughout CoTF. Not only that, he now had Streen as a new source to drain, in CoTF.

4. Yavin is a DS nexus not only in its temples, but throughout. I believe SoR confirms that the dark side saturates Yavin uniformly to a very high intensity.

Old Post Jan 1st, 2018 05:43 PM
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